I'm Surrounded by Antis - Help!

[rainbowbob]

The link to the following excellent article was posted by LKB3rd (post #67). I have include a few excerpts:

"RAGING AGAINST SELF DEFENSE"
A Psychiatrist Examines the Anti-Gun Mentality
by Sarah Thompson, M.D.

Anger and attacks do not work

Most gun owners, when confronted by an anti-gun person, become angry and hostile. This is understandable, because gun owners increasingly face ridicule, persecution and discrimination. (If you don't believe this, ask yourself if anyone would seriously introduce legislation to ban African- Americans, women, or Jews from post offices, schools, and churches. Even convicted felons aren't banned from such places – but peaceful armed citizens are!) But an angry response is counterproductive.

It's not helpful to attack the person you're trying to persuade. Anything that makes him feel more fearful or angry will only intensify his defenses. Your goal is to help the person feel safe, and then to provide experiences and information that will help him to make informed decisions.

Be Gentle

You should never try to break down a defense mechanism by force. Remember that defense mechanisms protect people from feelings they cannot handle, and if you take that protection away, you can cause serious psychological harm. And because defense mechanisms operate unconsciously, it won't do any good to show an anti-gun person this article or to point out that he's using defense mechanisms. Your goal is gently and gradually to help the person to have a more realistic and rational view of the world. This cannot be done in one hour or one day.

As you reach out to people in this way, you need to deal with both the illogical thought processes involved and the emotional reactions that anti-gun people have to firearms. When dealing with illogical thought processes, you are attempting to use reason and logic to convince the anti-gun person that his perception of other people and his perception of firearms are seriously inaccurate. The goal is to help him to understand that armed citizens and firearms are not threats, and may even save his life.

Don't try to "win" the argument. Don't try to embarrass the person you're trying to educate. Remember that no one likes to admit that his deeply held beliefs are wrong. No one likes to hear "I told you so!" Be patient and gentle. If you are arrogant, condescending, hurtful or rude to the anti-gun person, you will only convince him that gun owners are arrogant, hurtful people – who should not be trusted with guns!

Rational arguments alone are not likely to be successful, especially since many people "feel" rather than "think". You also need to deal with the emotional responses of the anti-gun person. Remember that most people have been conditioned to associate firearms with dead toddlers. So you need to change the person's emotional responses along with his thoughts.

One way to do this is to put the anti-gun person (or his family) at a hypothetical crime scene and ask what he would like to have happen. For example, "Imagine your wife is in the parking lot at the supermarket and two men grab her. One holds a knife to her throat while the other tears her clothes off. If I see this happening and have a gun, what should I do? What would happen next? What if after five minutes, the police still haven't arrived?"

You should not expect any of these approaches to work immediately; they won't. With rare exceptions, the anti-gun person is simply not going to "see the light," thank you profusely, and beg you to take him shooting. What you are doing is putting tiny chinks into the armor of the person's defenses, or planting seeds that may someday develop into a more open mind or a more rational analysis. This process can take months or years. But it does work!

 

[arflattop]

rainbowbob, you appear to be a highly moral individual. I admire that, and if more people had your sense of reason you wouldn't be in the situation you are in. My offering will not be popular on this board, but think of yourself in the future. As a 65 or 70 year old, which will make you more proud, the grandson that has shared his childhood with you, or your adamant RKBA? Yes, I know, people, without RKBA, we could all be slain in dramatic fashion. My point is that a difficult choice has to be made. One of relationships or one of high-minded (and correct, I might add) pricipals. I agree with everyone who has voiced that the rest of the family is unreasonable, wrong and everything else. Is it worth taking a similar immovable stand and losing a long term marriage, and relationships with family members? As you've mentioned, rainbowbob, carry when not in their presence. Let your level headedness and gentle persuasion convince your wife and possible others in your family. Good luck. God never promised that life would be simple!

 

[rainbowbob]

These days people seem all to quick to walk out on their vows that seemed reasonable on their wedding day. I have little or no respect for this view. To me vows made on my wedding day mean something. Ask yourself would you rather be sitting at home alone in old age with a few guns, or have guns safely stored with grandbabies at your side. You are not showing weakness by giving in. It takes a strong man to compromise.

Thanks, Gramps!

What would be your advice to someone in your shoes?

A very good question! At this point I think my answer would be:

Be patient. This is all new and frightening to your family. Temporarily agreeing to refrain from CCW in the presence of some of your family members is not the end of the world - or the end of the discussion.

Your grandchild, as well as your relationship with your family is a top priority. Don't screw it up by dropping the CCW bomb and expecting them to instantly accept it with no education or experience in the issues involved.

Go slow, be willing to compromise, gently educate them, and they will probably come around.

 

[rainbowbob]

Also, do not allow yourself to be sent to the couch. She can go to the couch.

This has been mentioned in several responses. The fact is SHE spent a night on the couch because we didn't want to to bed together mad. I aint sleepin' on no couch! However, all of this comes under the heading of me providing TMI.

I agree and admit, at least to some degree, that there may be some control struggles going on here. But I am committed to my family and committed to working this out.

Be assured that I am NOT a limp-wristed, milk-toast. My family is reacting to their irrational, but deep-seated fears regarding firearms.

These primarily include, but are not necessarily limited to:

1.) accidental discharges
2.) the fear that I will somehow provoke a shoot-out in what otherwise would have been a non-violent robbery.

 

[NickEllis]

I've got your situation quite a bit in my thoughts, rainbowbob, and though it may sound odd, in my prayers. This is a touchy situation, but it sounds like you are a mature individual committed both to his convictions, and also to his family. Best of luck.

 

[hso]

Do they trust you to drive with them in the vehicle? Have you exhibited any tendency towards unsafe driving, excessive speeding or road rage?

If there's a disagreement, has the difference of opinion come to screaming, threats of violence or blows?

If none of these things have happened, then the fear that you will behave irresponsibly and irrationally are projections of their fears onto you. Remind them that you're still the same person that you always were and that you've not suddenly been possessed by demons. Their fear of what some vague someone might do are not fairly laid on you, the person they know.

Point out that their attempt to control you is no more fair than you insisting that they do or do not do something simply because you think that you were right. Mature adults simply don't insist that other mature adults do or don't do things because of a power struggle.

Remind them that you respect them as individuals and would be happy to respect their wishes in their homes, but that it must be reciprocal and that they need to show the same respect for you.

If your daughter is concerned about your grandchild's safety assure here that at no time would you leave a weapon out where your grandchild would get it. Remind her that it's your grandchild and that you love it as well. Reassure her by sending her Pax's Kids and Guns articles on keeping kids safe in households with guns. Point out that you held her safety as a child in the same regard as her child's safety now and that she seems to have all her parts intact.

 

[rainbowbob]

If there's a disagreement, has the difference of opinion come to screaming, threats of violence or blows?

My family is reacting to their irrational, but deep-seated fears regarding firearms.

They aren't afraid of me...they're afraid of guns and bad guys.

 

[rbernie]

I agree and admit, at least to some degree, that there may be some control struggles going on here. But I am committed to my family and committed to working this out.

Good on ya. Just make sure that they can say the same.

Be assured that I am NOT a limp-wristed, milk-toast. My family is reacting to their irrational, but dep-seated fears regarding firearms.

These primarily include, but are not necessarily limited to:

1.) accidental discharges
2.) the fear that I will somehow provoke a shoot-out in what otherwise would have been a non-violent robbery.

This speaks to the fact that they fear YOU and how you would react in the face of things. The presence of a gun somehow transforms you from someone that they knew/trusted into someone else. As nonsensical as it sounds, people do fear objects. Their fear of a firearm is being transferred to you.

I've been through this, in a different fashion. Time is the key - just hang in there until the anxieties diminish and they can start to see things more rationally. You cannot talk people out of their fears.

I do have one quarrel with your statements, tho - I refuse to accept the notion that any robbery can be 'non-violent'. Every robbery involves coercion through the use of force or the threat of the use of force. The fact that the force is only threatened does not make it non-violent. It is still a coercion, and (as we all know) you do not know how far that coercion will extend.

They aren't afraid of me...they're afraid of guns and bad guys.

But they ARE afraid of you, as far as I can tell from your statements. You are in control of the firearm when you have your grandson visiting, and yet that control is inadequate.

They do not believe that you can control the firearm, and as a result they are afraid of you when it is around.

 

[hso]

They aren't afraid of me...they're afraid of guns and bad guys.

Since they're expressing irrational fears, why are they irrational, or more importantly, why are their expressions of them being applied to you.

Ask them if they are afraid of You. Are they afraid of You,the father that raised them. You, the husband that was their partner.

If they're afraid of someone else (even if they don't know who that is) ask them why they want to treat you like that other person?

Then leave it at that for a while so they can think about whether they should be treating you like someone they're afraid of if they don't think they have any reason to be afraid of You.

 

[mbt2001]

Be patient. This is all new and frightening to your family. Temporarily agreeing to refrain from CCW in the presence of some of your family members is not the end of the world - or the end of the discussion.

Your grandchild, as well as your relationship with your family is a top priority. Don't screw it up by dropping the CCW bomb and expecting them to instantly accept it with no education or experience in the issues involved.

Go slow, be willing to compromise, gently educate them, and they will probably come around.

This is nutty. If I come home with a motorcycle I just bought, the wife wouldn't like it, but she doesn't have to ride on it if she doesn't want to. I don't see how the gun discussion is this "democratic, feel good, tolerance" thing that you are making it out to be.

I just don't get why you are reacting the way that you are...

 

[rainbowbob]

I do have one quarrel with your statements, tho - I refuse to accept the notion that any robbery can be 'non-violent'.

Let me make it clear: I'm not talking about MY belief that a robbery can be a non-violent event if you don't resist. I believe that EVERY robbery is a violent assault.

My family have deluded themselves (even my brother, the judge, who MUST know better) into thinking that if you just give them what they want - they will poiltely walk away. Conversely, they believe that if I engage the assailants with a firearm, we end up in a shoot-out.

 

[rainbowbob]

But they ARE afraid of you, as far as I can tell form your statements. You are in control of the firearm when you have your grandson visiting, and yet that control is inadequate.

They do not believe that you can control the firearm, and as a result they are afraid of you when it is around.

It's not that they think I'm an incompetent moron, or a homicidal maniac. They know absolutely nothing about firearms and don't believe anyone can control a firearm 100% of the time.

 

[Sato Ord]

Let me wade back in for a minute.

Perhaps you should point out that you have no intention of killing anyone over property. That your values haven't changed simply because you have taken a stance to defend yourself against a potential deadly threat.

In any situation you are always going to have to go with your feelings of what is happening at the time, not what someone else has done while being robbed. Each situation is unique and you always get a gut reaction of what exactly is happening at the time. If your gut tells you that this perp is going to take your wallet and run like a bunny, then give him your wallet. If your gut tells you that no matter how compliant you are this guy is going to try and kill you, you give him a face full of hot lead. You can't know which it will be until it happens. Hopefully it will never happen, but you cannot make the final choice until you are up close and personal.

What you are deciding to do is be prepared just in case the situation becomes deadly, not going out and looking for trouble. The problem with not carrying is when it becomes obvious that the perp is not going to take the money and run: that 's a lousy time to have to say can we put this on hold while I run back to my house and get my gun?

I know this is beating a dead horse as far as arguments go, but it's the truth. What you have to do is convince your family that your values haven't changed, and you aren't out to play vigilante.

Good luck. I understand commitment to the vows you made. I stayed in a bad relationship with my second wife for an extra twelve years because of promises I had made, even though she never lived up to her side of the promises. When she finally released me from those commitments I was packed and out of the house in fifteen minutes. When I couldn't get two of my favorite pistols before leaving I simply gave them up as lost. I have to tell you though, the way I see it, commitment is not a one way street.

 

[Dope]

Well, your dad was wrong. That's as ridiculous as if I were to say that "all men are knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, testosterone-poisoned idiots."

Actually, I'd say that's fairly accurate

Dope

 

[Im283]

Bob it sounds like you sort of have it figured out. They will come around.

Hang in there and keep the faith.

And don't do the faked break in thing, got to be an all time Top-5 stupid idea, can't believe it was suggested in this forum.

 

[hso]

rainbowbob,

It sounds like you're still caught up in their argument.

That great article from LKB3rd is about how the argument needs to be redefined so that the folks with the irrational fears and the control issues can stop for a moment and see that you, their father, husband, sib, are not the person they fear, but that they are putting their fears on you regardless of how well they know You.

You may want to look at talking to a disinterested professional councilor to work with you and your wife and daughter on the issue. It doesn't matter if you were to have bought a 2 seater sports car that your daughter forbade you to take the grandchild out in or your wife refused to sleep in the same room until you got rid of the issue is irrational fear, refusal to acknowledge that you're the same person they always trusted and control. It may simply be that you all need a impartial person who can listen to explain that You, Bob, are not any different than you always were, but if they keep treating you as if you are it could mean that the relationships change.

Good luck to you and thanks to LKB3rd for the article.

 

[hso]

And don't do the faked break in thing, got to be an all time Top-5 stupid idea, can't believe it was suggested in this forum.

Someone almost always suggests that the mom/gf/wife/sister be subjected to the trauma of a fake break in/mugging/rape to "wake them up" in these threads. No one listens to them (no one with an IQ above room temp that is).

 

[jackmead]

I agree with Chris in VA, why do you have to be tolerant of everyone else when you get treated like this. She still is your daughter and she sounds like she's acting like your mom. Tolerance is a two way street, the libs didn't invent it.

 

[skinewmexico]

Tolerance is a virtue...........to a man without convictions - Chesterton

Personally, I do what other people request in their homes, and do what I want the rest of the time. Life's too short to change the unchangeable.

 

[eatont9999]

You have quite a pickle there, my friend. In your situation, I would not stop carrying because they want you to. In their home, yes, abide by their rules like anywhere else.

They think that if they bury their heads in the sand, nothing bad will come to them. The best and hardest lesson they could learn is what happens in an armed home invasion. Not to wish harm against your family, but I think their minds would change if danger got close enough to them. Citing examples in the media may help open their eyes, but they should lay off the liberal media for a while and see what that does.

Start with your wife. Try to get her interested in your guns again. She has had an interest, and she can be swayed easily, hence the way your daughter changed her mind so quickly. Once your wife is interested, take her to the range as much as she wants. Get some good range stories together and go visit the family. You and your wife can have a bunch of fun talking about how she or you did what ever at the range one day.

Basically, get the ani's to think they are really missing out on something great, which they are, and take it from there. Be the point man for anything gun related while they get started up. Owning firearms is just as much a hobby as it is a life saving tool.

I have near the same problem as you do. My mother and I own a house together, but I plan to move to Texas in a few years. I want to get her a CCW before I leave. She needs protection in the house while she is by herself. Also, she is a real-estate agent, so she meets with a lot of strangers and goes into many unoccupied homes unprotected. My goal is to get her licensed and able to clear a house when she is alone.

Good luck!

 

[mbt2001]

Someone almost always suggests that the mom/gf/wife/sister be subjected to the trauma of a fake break in/mugging/rape to "wake them up" in these threads. No one listens to them (no one with an IQ above room temp that is).

Some people can't read a joke. That was obviously a joke. It was designed to get a laugh, I guess it bombed, I still think it was clever, but then again that is just me apparently.

 

[Tokugawa]

So are you going to get to teach your grandson about firearms and take him shooting?

I was recently informed that WA has the most CCW holders of any state. It has been a "shall issue " state for a long while. Don't really know what to say here, but a central theme is ignorance of firearms. Perhaps the next time they spout off, you should invite them shooting. Ask them why, if they have absolutely no knowledge of firearms, why you should heed their opinion. Sort of like taking a virgin's advice on sex.

 

[CountGlockula]

Just bring your CCW weapon everywhere BUT your brother's and daughter's place.

Should I be asking everyone I come in contact with if they mind that I am CCW?

CCW is between you, the LORD and the law. Concealed is concealed.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I think Robert Hairless, hso, and Arfin have made any comment I would have offered, with the exception of a couple . . .

You certainly could take the advice of everyone here and do it anyway, your wife and daughter's objections be damned.

Should the unspeakable happen, and you actually do have to use it, what manner of support do you think your family will provide you?


Speak or listen to the comments by anyone who has ever shot another person. You'll need the support of those who love you the most to act as your haven, your ground, your stability in the sea of self-doubt that happens after a shooting. Let's not fool ourselves; this process occurs even under the most clear cut instances of self-defense, even by police officers who are forced to shoot in the line of duty.


Having the gun might save you or your loved ones in fight #1. How prepared are you for fight #2 - the aftermath? You're going to feel quite abandoned, because you will be.


This issue is about control. You are caught up in their argument. This is about bluffs and threats aimed at controlling your behavior. Remove guns, and insert <church>. "Honey, you didn't need <church> during our first 33 years of marriage. Why do you insist on <going to church> now?" The answer is they don't have to go to <church> with you. But to deny your ability to <go to church> is disrepecting you as a husband and father.


As Robert pointed out, your daughter has no business conspiring to turn her mother against you. How you resolve this is a delicate matter. You don't need to convince them to convert, as in <going to church> with you. But they do need to be made to understand threats, extortion, and withholding affection is cruel and wicked behavior.


The way to bring them around to respecting you on this issue really isn't much different from how evangelicals spread Christian faith. It isn't done by beating people up with facts; its done slowly, through living a good example, and subtle persuation. To share you views, they have to come around on their own. To respect your views, they simply need to be reminded how families who love each other act.


If you can't get past simple respect, you're going to have some tough decisions ahead.

 

[revjen45]

This thread reinforces my conviction what a jewel I have for a wife.
My mother got her nose out of joint when I wouldn't stop riding motorcycles because it scared her. I said "Everything scares you." That annoyed her more. In the end she decided she wanted nothing to do with me when I would not let her run my life once I became an adult. We have not spoken in 20 years, and I don't even know if she is still alive. Do I regret it? No. I would have preferred to be friends, but her insistence on running my life and trying the guilt trip thing when I refused made it impossible. Your family are trying to run your life. It's up to you if they succeed.