IMI- Tavor bullpup assault rifle

[tire iron]

Corriea,

I have nothing at all against the bullpup concept. In fact I think it holds great promise.

My beef is with how the bullpup concept has been executed. EVERY bullpup but one is a 'shoulder specific' rifle. THAT is my complaint. The ONLY bullpup that has been 'thought out' correctly is the FN2000. It is the only bullpup that I would even seriously consider - the others limit one's options too much.

So to my way of thinking (which admittedly is 'unusual') - there should never have been a 'shoulder specific' rifle ever designed - and if the designers actually had to FIGHT with the rifles they designed, and they had to expose more of their body than they should have to - they WOULD design a bullpup that is truely 'ambi'. So to me that is where the 'gap' is.

cheers

tire iron

 

[Correia]

We can be in agreement there. I think that forward ejection is a great idea, but since I've never even seen an FN2000 in person, let alone examined the action I've got to withhold my opinion.

 

[tire iron]

Lest anyone be confused - my statement:
(The FN2000 is)

the only bullpup that I would even seriously consider

only means that it is worthy of T&E'ing. I too have no trigger time with it and have never held it. But the fact that it is THE ONLY ambi bullpup out there - means it is the only bullpup that I would even look at for more than being 'curious'.

cheers

tire iron

 

[Grump]

Sorry I missed the memo, but...

How does the FAMAS eject forward somewhere? I find this intriguing and far more useful that either semi-permanent lefty conversions, or awkward in-the-field adjustments to the system.

Now, and EASY flipover of some part to allow left ejection, as easy as flipping up some bogus plastic back-up sight, would probably come close enough to the benefit some of us want to badly.

 

[tire iron]

Grump,

It is the FN produced (Belgian) 2000 bullpup that ejects the spent cartridges out of a tube that runs along the top of the barrel. The brass justs 'falls' out of the tube.

The FAMAS (French) is like every other bullpup - i.e. one must choose BEFORE going to the field if one wants a right or left handed rifle.

And you are right - the forward ejecting FN 2000 IS intreguing - because it can be used from either shoulder - equally as well.

cheers

tire iron

 

[seeker_two]

I'm intrigued w/ the bullpup rifles, too. I especially like the FN2000's ejection system, but I don't feel I'd be too hampered w/ the other ejection systems.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried developing a bullpup rifle w/ a bottom-eject system like Calico SMG's or Ithica 37's? Seems like that would solve the ambidextry problem, too.

 

[Justin]

IIRC, the FN P90 ejects through the bottom, although it's not a bullpup in the true sense of the word. The magazine sits on the top of the weapon instead of behind the grip.

Also, the previously mentioned Calico Carbines are bottom ejectors as well.

 

[Caseless]

2 points

1) Aside from the FN F2000, the revolutionary caseless HK G11 is another good ambidextrous bullpup design.

2) I, too have been lusting after a .308 bullpup. The closest I have seen is the derivative of the Dragunov SVD, called the SVU - www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn19-e.htm. It is chambered in the 7.62 x 54 rimmed cartridge, which is slightly more powerful than .308.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Feh. LIke almost every Russian bullpup, it's not only non-ambidextrious, but not able to be switched for lefties. Shame, 'cause it's really cool.

 

[Caseless]

I think in this case it doesn't matter because the SVU is a sniper/fire suppression rifle, not an assault rifle.
Merry Christmas to all highroaders.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Matters to me; I'm left handed!

I don't think it's super-critical that you be able to switch shoulders on the fly, though it is nice. But a rifle that I can't even use properly because it's wrong-handed...ick!

But yes, the WORLD NEEDS A .308 BULLPUP!

 

[max popenker]

well, the Soviets experimented with ambi bullpups since mid-1960s, if not earlier. here's the experimental 7.62x39 TKB-011M bullpup (top on picture), developed in Tula by Afanasiev in 1969. Note the ejection port just behind the pistol grip (pointed by arrow), which ejected shells forward and to the right slightly, well clear off the face when shooting from left shoulder. also note polymer housing, almost 10 years before the famous Steyr AUG


the more recent is the A91 bullpup, made also in Tula. middle is the older 7.62x39 version (late 1990s), with integral 40mm above the barrel, below is the most recent 5.56NATO version, with underbarrel 40mm. Both feature forward ejection with port at the right side of the receiver, above the pistol grip, and pointing forward, not to the side (marked by arrows).

finally, a bit of trivia: first gun to have forward ejection feature was... the Maxim MG of 1880s wintage =)

 

[Nightcrawler]

Now THOSE are cool, Max. Top one's a bit on the ugly side, though. Got that Russian bakelite-looking wood-colored plastic...

 

[Braith-Wafer]

Now that feature is used on the FN F2000.

But what about the cocking handle on this one? Does it divert the cartridge ejection?

 

[elmerfudd]

Everything has trade offs. The M4 is nice and short but gives up 8 inches of barrel to a comparably sized bullpup. Where I honestly think bullpups would shine are as DMRs or as suppressed weapons. Both of which the length benefit would offset the lack of left handed shooting. That is why the world needs a good .308 bullpup.

I dunno, a .308 is a pretty big cartridge to stuff into a bullpup configuration. I'd be concerned about the length of pull on one.

 

[rkh]

Let me remind everyone that the FN2000, or at least the version FN sells to US consumers, would be one heck of a lousy service rifle.

Practical experience shows that:

1) magazines do not drop free;
2) clearing feed failures/jams frequently involve disassembling the rifle--there is no tap-rack-bang equivalent;
3) the creepy trigger breaks at a brutal 10+ lbs and by virtue of the bullpup design can never be made match grade;
4) even if magazines did drop free, mag changes would not be as fast as with the AR layout.

Issues 3 & 4 are the only problems that will likely not be overcome by a better bullpup. When that bullpup arrives, then we'll be able to decide whether a lousy trigger and slow reloads are a fair trade for a longer barrel in a compact package.

 

[Wes Janson]

Practical experience shows that:

1) magazines do not drop free;
2) clearing feed failures/jams frequently involve disassembling the rifle--there is no tap-rack-bang equivalent;
3) the creepy trigger breaks at a brutal 10+ lbs and by virtue of the bullpup design can never be made match grade;
4) even if magazines did drop free, mag changes would not be as fast as with the AR layout.

Issues 3 & 4 are the only problems that will likely not be overcome by a better bullpup. When that bullpup arrives, then we'll be able to decide whether a lousy trigger and slow reloads are a fair trade for a longer barrel in a compact package.

#1 is somewhat unknown at this point because it's still in a prototype phase, and #2 will require extensive testing to know for sure one way or another, but the Kel-Tec bullpup definitely solves #3. The trigger pull weight is adjustable down to two pounds..and it really IS a short, light pull. Too light for a battle rifle maybe, but it can just as easily be set for four or five pounds.

 

[doc2rn]

Doesn't Steyr make a lefty B-pup?

 

[rkh]

Wes:

As indicated, I was talking about the FN bullpup which is NOT a prototype. There are lots of them in circulation now, and a lot of less-than-satisfied owners.

I reserve comment on the Kel-Tec trigger until examples actually become available.

 

[GunTech]

Oh, just so it's known, I'd sell a kidney if I could get a semiautomatic .308 bullpup that was lefty friendly. Especially if it looked as cool as the FAMAS.

keltec will be releasing the RFB soon. It's 308 and has forward ejection, making it ambidexterus.