Impressed with PS90

[Trent]

On a whim I decided to run the FN PS90 through it's paces this weekend on a practice for our monthly club rifle match. This match consists of 5 stages - standing/50 yards, kneeling/100 yards, sitting/100 yards, prone/200 yards, bench/200 yards. It's designed to give people an all around workout for their rifles and not overly favor any particular type of rifle / optics.

Since I own several PS90's (good for training my children), I got the idea to take it out and see how it would do on the course we shoot each month. The 22 Rimfire starts to drop like a meteor at 200 yards and my results with letting kids use 10/22's have been poor - they do well out to 100 yards, but none can manage to put shots on target at 200 yards with it on a calm day, let alone a windy one.

So I figured with 5.7mm ammo becoming available again, I wanted to see if I could substitute in the PS90's I own as rental guns. The big question - could even be competitive on this course? The 200 yard stages are the problem areas for small cartridges, so it concerned me. The low recoil and ease of use lends it well towards children competitors. But I didn't want to hand over a PS90 rental rifle to them to use if it couldn't be competitive on the course!

I shot three repetitions on the course. And .. My opinion over the effectiveness of these little bullpups, with their stock FNH non-magnified sights, has been soundly corrected.

I managed to post a respectable score on this course with this little PS90 - 369/500 (73%). (This would have won this month's match, FWIW - high score was 351 this month).

As expected, the rifle is incredibly stable shooting from standing/sitting/kneeling (there's zero weight in front of your support hand!). The reticle just doesn't move, your arm doesn't get fatigued because it's not supporting any weight. This cuts the variables down to how stable your stance is.

It literally feels like you're shooting a conventional rifle with a loop sling (but without the pain). It's that stable.

But 200 yards is where I really got surprised. Since this was a practice shoot, I ran all 20 shots at 200 yards from prone, instead of doing 10 prone and 10 from the bench with a bag. There were no sighters. Wind was uncertain at best, gusting between 5-15 mph. (Was using puffs of dirt from other shooters on the 200 yard berm as wind indicators).

Here's my 20 shot 200 yard group from prone.



If I'd managed to center that group, it would have been more impressive. With no sighters I was relying solely on guesswork and gut instinct for drop and wind correction. I wasn't too far off the mark. If I'd centered that group on the x ring, it would have been a 180+ score instead of 165.

(There's always next time.)

Ammo was off the shelf, American Eagle 40gr.

Anyway, point of this thread is my attitude towards these little guns has been officially "corrected".

 

[Trent]

Better picture.

 

[JustinJ]

The PS90 is an awfully cool little rifle, imo. Seems like an ideal weapon for Home Defense as well.

 

[GBExpat]

I like both the idea and the look of them ... and the fact that I could be doing a walkabout on the farm with such a handy, lightweight little rifle sporting a 50rd mag.

I would probably have one now if it were not for the high cost of the factory ammo and my concerns about possible issues with successfully reloading the little polymer-coated cases.

 

[Trent]

I like both the idea and the look of them ... and the fact that I could be doing a walkabout on the farm with such a handy, lightweight little rifle sporting a 50rd mag.

Yeah they're nice. I take mine out with me when I let the dogs out at night, and keep it next to my bed while I sleep. It's comforting knowing I have 50 rounds on tap from a stable platform. (Much more stable than a handgun, and just as fast/faster indoors, particularly if I get woken up abruptly and don't have all my fine motor skills yet...)

I also have a 5 level home (split 2 levels on one side, 3 on the other), with 8 occupants (5 of which are children), 2 dogs, cats, etc. With a complex floor layout and people / animals "who knows where", over-penetration on a home defense gun was my primary concern when picking out what I sleep next to.

I would probably have one now if it were not for the high cost of the factory ammo and my concerns about possible issues with successfully reloading the little polymer-coated cases.

Yeah, I'm sitting on a mountain of brass, have dies, bought an ultrasonic cleaner, and I'm still a bit nervous about loading my first ones. Two things are holding me up, finding the right powder (none of what I have in my stockpile will work), and those dastardly little cases.

Last factory ammo I bought at the local gun shop was 23.99 / 50. Which is about $8 a box more than it cost me a couple years ago.

 

[chicharrones]

That is impressive, Trent. I never thought about the PS90 at 200 yards.

The one I've fired made me notice how the muzzle recoils to the right a bit, compared to the muzzle rising more straight up like a conventional rifle. That's probably because the first time I fired a PS90, it didn't like to be fired like a conventional rifle in a semi-bladed stance. It worked much better when I squared my body to the target.

 

[Trent]

That is impressive, Trent. I never thought about the PS90 at 200 yards.

The one I've fired made me notice how the muzzle recoils to the right a bit, compared to the muzzle rising more straight up like a conventional rifle. That's probably because the first time I fired a PS90, it didn't like to be fired like a conventional rifle in a semi-bladed stance. It worked much better when I squared my body to the target.

Yeah I had to square up my stance a little too, standing, to get the ergonomics right. Once I spent some time to figure it out, I was able to put 10/10 in the black at 50 yards on one of those diminutive TQ3/1 targets from standing (bullseye is 3/4", black is 3 7/8").

How it's sighted in now, at 50 and 100 yards I have essentially the same point of aim - dead center. Bullet must be peaking around 75 yds.

At 200 yards, I was putting the center of the dot at the top of the black circle of the 200 yard target. I need to go slightly higher. The group hit to the right a few inches because of the wind - made the wrong call (at least I was consistently wrong!). I thought I had a direct tailwind based on dirt clouds forming from my buddy's 22-250 at the 200 yard berm. But there was a sharp cut to the right as I was shooting directly past the right edge of the 100 yard berm to hit the 200 yard targets. It was channeling that tailwind and pushing it out strongly across my path at about 20mph between 90-120 yards. Unfortunately, I couldn't see that, no tells. (Sure felt it when I went to change targets though!) If it wasn't for that, the group would have been centered horizontally.

I need to get a little more of the center dot above the target. The center dot on the PS90 gen2 reticle almost exactly matches the diameter of that black circle on the 200 yard target at 200 yards. I was nudging it up a little until it my sight picture formed a tiny figure 8. That put my point of aim at the top of the black circle at 200 yards. I need to get the dots separated a smidge more. Very difficult to see that clearly!

 

[Trent]

BTW, I wasn't joking when I said I have one for each of my kids.

I had a dozen left in stock when I closed down my gun shop. I kept 8 (one to give to each of my 5 kids when they get of age, plus one for the wife, and two for me; one tri-rail and one gen2 optic).

 

[Plastikosmd]

Can u adopt me?

 

[barnbwt]

It looks like prices on these are finally stabilizing; they had been upwards of 1600$, but they seem to be going reliably for around 1200$ these days. Not a huge deal more than a CX4, actually. I had written these guys off as a pairing to the five-seven since they'd gotten so stupid expensive, and the FNH factory strike had all but dried up the ammo supply. Your glowing review has renewed my interest

It's probably cheaper to feed (and magazine, especially) than my FNAR at this point

TCB

 

[Trent]

Yeah, barn. When I bought these in 2009 they were at the peak of wholesale prices, I paid about $1450 each for them at cost. Then the Euro tanked and suddenly they dropped in price 20-30% wholesale. So I've been sitting on a loss for a long time. Probably won't ever come back up to that price. (I did unload one during "the great 2013 run on guns" for a good premium, which I promptly recycled in to a high end Nightforce scope).

Current wholesale price is:

FNH PS90 STANDARD 5.7X28MM 30-SHOT BLACK $1,149.00
FNH PS90 5.7X28MM 30-SHOT BLACK W/FACTORY RED-DOT $1,369.00

(My old wholesale accounts still work, just can't order anything but C&R since I don't have a dealer FFL anymore).

Factory ammo is selling at $23.99/50 locally. I haven't really dug around much for deals at that price point. Wholesale on Fiocci is "FNH 5.7X28MM 40GR. V-MAX 50-PK $20.25"

Or 19.56 at QTY2000.

So anywhere in the low 20's is "a good deal", I suppose. I paid 48 cents a piece at $23.99 which is a fair bit cheaper than decent 223 and a LOT cheaper than 308, locally.

I mean, it's still going to cost you to shoot, but not so much. If I can ever find any True Blue or another compatible powder, I'll be able reload them at about 20 cents each w/ Hornaday 40 gr Vmax.

Which is pretty good. I can deal with $20/100. Now the price point is far enough apart it's worth the extra hassle (ultrasonic cleaning, can't tumble the cases, you'll take off the dry film lubricant on them, nitpicky overall length, nitpicky case length adjustment, tiny ranges of acceptable powder weights, etc).

My latest Hornaday reloading book I bought have loads for 5.7 in it, so at least it's becoming more mainstream. Prior to that book you had to go digging on the Internet, or just flat out experiment, both of which is a bit risky.

 

[Trent]

Also, was messing around tonight.

Had a spare Yardage Pro scope in my cabinet, and tossed it on one of the tri-rail models to see how it'd look.



Quite possibly the first PS90 with laser rangefinding capability.



(EDIT: No, it's not staying there. The damn scope weighs more than the rifle.)

 

[barnbwt]

"Which is pretty good. I can deal with $20/100. Now the price point is far enough apart it's worth the extra hassle (ultrasonic cleaning, can't tumble the cases, you'll take off the dry film lubricant on them, nitpicky overall length, nitpicky case length adjustment, tiny ranges of acceptable powder weights, etc)."

You forgot the huge .040" of neck set-back as well--that'd freak me out the first couple times, for sure .

As far as the scope, I think you need to go larger . 50mm at least, so you can rest your cheek on it . Are most of your PS90s tri-rail models? Do they actually sit optics higher up than the "integral" sight models also available, and if so, do you find the extra height desirable? I know the flat-top stock is something of a detriment when it comes to sighting on low-mounted setups.

TCB

 

[Shipwreck]

I've previously owned two. Still have one and sold one to buy a Steyr AUG. But I love my PS90. It's still my favorite rifle. Capacity, weigh, size and ergonomics are fantastic. Plus, they are like 1000% reliable.

 

[ECVMatt]

You guys are killing me! Those are awesome rifles.

 

[mr.trooper]

I'm impressed with the PS90 and the 5.7 cartridge as well. I'm hoping the ammo becomes available again also, because my FiveSeven has been getting neglected lately.

 

[Trent]

"Which is pretty good. I can deal with $20/100. Now the price point is far enough apart it's worth the extra hassle (ultrasonic cleaning, can't tumble the cases, you'll take off the dry film lubricant on them, nitpicky overall length, nitpicky case length adjustment, tiny ranges of acceptable powder weights, etc)."

You forgot the huge .040" of neck set-back as well--that'd freak me out the first couple times, for sure .

As far as the scope, I think you need to go larger . 50mm at least, so you can rest your cheek on it . Are most of your PS90s tri-rail models? Do they actually sit optics higher up than the "integral" sight models also available, and if so, do you find the extra height desirable? I know the flat-top stock is something of a detriment when it comes to sighting on low-mounted setups.

TCB

I have 2 tri-rail and 7 standard optics left. Going to end up parting with 2 more at some point. Not sure which ones.

As far as optics height, that scope I posted above sits pretty high but gave a remarkably good cheek weld standing. Bench would be OK, standing / kneeling / sitting OK. Only issue I could see would be prone, that might make my neck cramp up a little. (More than usual, anyway)

Eye relief would be a bigger concern. The rail is short, and there is NO leeway in where I could mount that one. The good news is you could get by with a very short eye relief scope since there is virtually no recoil on the gun. Don't need to worry about getting a black eye, like you would with heavier hitting guns. (Or, for point of reference, my first shot with the Yugo M76 semiauto 8mm and the ensuing bandaid).

I've been sitting with nothing on those tri-rails now since I got the dang things. Not sure what I'm going to mount on them. If they made an ACOG with a 5.7mm trajectory reticle I'd jump on it. But they don't. A 223 reticle wouldn't do me any good. Ballistics are too different.

I'm sort of at a deadlock between a 1-4x Nightforce, and the Eotech w/ the cowitnessed 3x swing up magnifier. Both are pricey. Probably going to sell one more of the rifles to buy the optics for it.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

BTW, I wasn't joking when I said I have one for each of my kids.

I had a dozen left in stock when I closed down my gun shop. I kept 8 (one to give to each of my 5 kids when they get of age, plus one for the wife, and two for me; one tri-rail and one gen2 optic).

You are awesome Trent! I think I love you man.

 

[Snowdog]

I don't have a PS90 but certainly wouldn't mind having one. I admit catching the bug for the P90 from a Sci-fi show and would really want the shorter barrel, full auto version but that's not going to happen.

One thing that I find confusing is reading about 30-round magazines available for them though I understand the PS90 accommodates a 50-round magazine.

Why would one choose the 30-round magazine for the PS90?

 

[Shipwreck]

The gun comes with a magazine modified to only hold 30 rounds. You can take this piece out and either cut it yourself, or buy an aftermarket piece that turns it back into a 50 round mag.

THen, any new mags you buy will automatically be 50 round mags.

 

[GBExpat]

Trent, that is a beeeoootiful Family RecRoom. Brings tears of happiness to my eyes.

 

[kBob]

What sort of velocity is that 5.7 moving at 200 meters?

I think the idea of a whole family having like working guns is great!

I would like to see some tests of the commercial 5.7 round on gel, both bare and clothed, and on and through household structures before I used one for home defense.

When the 5.7 FN came out Dr. Martin Fackler was comparing it to the .22 Magnum Rim Fire and I have been wondering how that comparison has held up.

Also have any of these rifles been used in defensive shootings? Any 100 to 200 pond game taken with them? How did they perform?

Just want to know more.

-kBob

 

[Snowdog]

The gun comes with a magazine modified to only hold 30 rounds. You can take this piece out and either cut it yourself, or buy an aftermarket piece that turns it back into a 50 round mag.

THen, any new mags you buy will automatically be 50 round mags.

Ah, that's the answer that eluded me. Thanks Shipwreck!

 

[HoosierQ]

Dear Trent,

Thanks for making me now actually want what has always been an intriguing firearm for me...the PS90.

Sincerely

QB

 

[Trent]

No problem Hoosier.

They were a 'curiosity' to me at first, I admit (as a previous posted eluded to) that my interest in PS90's was also influenced from a certain sci-fi show. That, and video games.

The platform became a lot more serious for me when, after some time on this board, I re-thought my previous choices for home defense. Due to our home layout, occupants, etc. A 5.7mm makes a LOT more sense from an over-penetration perspective.

Another incident sealed the deal on the cartridge; another nearby home was burglarized by *5* armed intruders last year. 5 on 1 odds isn't good. 50 rounds on tap lets me sleep very well at night. The platform is also ideal (easy to use, low recoiling), so it makes a good go-to rifle for my older kids and wife, if I get taken down by a bad guy (or I'm not home!).

Answering the question about ballistics:

That American Eagle 40gr bullet leaves the barrel at an average of just over 2,000 fps.

With a 100 yard zero, at 200 yards it drops about 12", and slowed to 1281 fps (according to sierra infinity). It hits with 145.8 ft/lb of force.

By comparison, a 22 WMR 30 grain bullet drops to 1080fps by 150 yards, and hits with 80 ft. lbs.

So no, it's definitely not an apples to apples comparison, to compare a 5.7x28mm to a 22WMR.

The other thing to consider is projectile composition. At 200 yards I couldn't FIND a fragment big enough to tell definitively that it was fired from my rifle. The 3/4" plywood target stand caused them to, essentially, vaporize. The largest piece of bullet fragment I found was about 1/2 the area of my pinky fingernail.

Up close, they fragment viciously as well. I've shot water bottles in my back yard with a white posterboard behind them. The bullets hit with spectacular effect, blowing the water bottle to pieces, while only tiny fragments penetrate the white board a foot behind.

Terminal ballistics is so subjective, and speculative, that it's hard to quantify stopping power (we've had countless threads on this subject on THR.)

But, there's no arguing that *I* would not want to get hit by one of these things at *any* distance. It's going to turn whatever it hits in to hamburger (as a couple of pests here in the country trying to get in my garbage cans have found out the hard way.)

Now, effectiveness past 200 yards is only viable with practice.

At 250 yards it's dropped 25+ inches and 119 ft/lb.

At 300 yards, 45 inches of drop and only 101 ft/lb of energy. It's also on the verge of the final supersonic barrier that will cause the bullet to destabilize.

So, 300 yards is about the maximum "effective" range. Hits on target at 300 yards are easily possible (it's accurate enough), but the drop is something you'll need to practice - as it's almost 4 feet.