Impressed with PS90

[Sheepdog1968]

If I lived in a gun friendly state, one of these would be mine.

 

[bannockburn]

Trent

Thanks for all the great info and hands-on experience you've had with the PS90. Makes me think about getting one someday.

 

[Shipwreck]

I personally prefer the 197 FN ammo.

I've heard some negative things about many of the American Eagle 5.7 rounds. I have a few boxes, but have not shot them yet. I wouldn't ever rely on the AE rounds for self defense.... Not after I read some of the recent issues people have had... I prefer the FN 197 rounds.

Here are the ballistic tables. Effective range is around 150 yards officially. As the round is light - if there is a wind, realistic effective range (in my opinion) is 100 yards easily. After 100 yards - you can get some significant variation if it is a windy day. (you can hit the target, but not in any decent group if it is windy at that range)

So, you CAN go further distances, as the charts show. But, wind is a bigger issue with this round than some other rounds (since the round is so light). I never even try to zero a 5.7 gun on a windy day.

But, the gun (PS90) IS known as a personal defense weapon... Better than a pistol - sort of a gap fill for a rifle. That beings aid, it is my favorite gun. And, I would not feel undergunned with it. Fantastic home defense weapon.

Here are some ballistic charts. Not - ONLY 197 and 195 is currently available. The other FN rounds listed in these charts have been discontinued. There are 2 other rounds still made (190 and 198), but FN restricts purchase of these to the general public.

 

[G|0cKbYtE]

What sort of velocity is that 5.7 moving at 200 meters?

I think the idea of a whole family having like working guns is great!

I would like to see some tests of the commercial 5.7 round on gel, both bare and clothed, and on and through household structures before I used one for home defense.

When the 5.7 FN came out Dr. Martin Fackler was comparing it to the .22 Magnum Rim Fire and I have been wondering how that comparison has held up.

Also have any of these rifles been used in defensive shootings? Any 100 to 200 pond game taken with them? How did they perform?

Just want to know more.

-kBob

Ask and you shall receive..

The 160-pound hog in the first two pictures was dropped with one round of SS197SR (not sure about the hog in the third picture).

The 182-pound deer in the last picture was dropped from 70 meters with one round of SS197SR through the lungs/heart. -- ("8pt 182 lb shot with fn5-7 at 70 m, with burris fastfire. ss197 ammo went through ribs to expand and take out both lungs and heart ...instant kill!!!!)




More hunting data...

okay. saw no hogs in texas. (and i thought they had a problem with hogs....only problem i had was i saw no hogs.

anyhow Rifle season for deer opened up on sat. i was working so i missed sat but i made it out on sunday. nada. well monday was the charm.

i got a medium doe with my PS90. 35-45 yards away. used SS197. shot her in the chest. double lung. she walked 10-15 paced and that was it. i found the round just under the skin on the opposite side. it had also passed through her shoulder. it missed her ribs and other bones as far as i can tell right now

then as i was cleaning her, a medium buck walked by. i used my new (got it friday the 18th) Colt 45 special combat govt. i used my reloads. 230gr JHP rounds. he was 30-40 yards away. again, a double lung shot. he walked about 12-15 paces and died.

i could not believe that while i was cleaning one another walked on by.

now for the fun part. i have not found the 45 acp round yet. it passes through and may have hit the flat part of his shoulder. i found a very small exit hole in his outer fur. the holes on the inside of the rib cage were not all that big.

the 5.7x28 round was a different story. it passes through the body cavity and through the muscle of her shoulder. it stopped just below the skin/fur. the hole on both sides of the rib cage were 2-3 times bigger than the 45acp holes. the 5.7 round holes were probably like 2-2.5 inches in diameter. i shot a couple of quick snaps and used a quarter for size. the holes are 9 o'clock in one photo and 11 o'clock in another...between the ribs

photos here: http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

i found three pieces of the SS197 round. i found all three pieces in roughly the same spot.

a very interesting day. i will get more photos after we get the skins off. i will get better measurements and see if i can find the 45 round.

please see these photos for the measurements of the 3 pieces from the 5.7 round. http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=1020723

eddie

This is more like what I hear about people that have hunted with the very relatively low-powered (compared to what you can buy from EA) factory SS197 round. It does a LOT more damage than what they were expecting. When analyzing the effects of 5.7x28mm rounds on living tissue it requires one to actually see the effects on tissue, not just make a prediction based on grain weight, velocity, and energy. You have to understand the bullets behavior when impacting flesh at a certain speed. In the SS197's case, the 40gr ballistic V-Max round has shredded a lot of game over the years.



Here are a few more second-hand accounts of the 5.7 used against game:

I love my 5.7, and It makes a great carry gun for hiking as it is light and I can carry it and 60 rounds that weighs less than one loaded 1911 with 8 rounds. My old man took a coyote out with one in the yard and it put a hole out the other side of the chest the size of a cantaloupe (It was an oblique shot no less).

I'd really like to see just one topic that celebrates this unique cartridge instead of calling it a novelty. I trust my five seven as much or more than any of my other firearms. It has jammed exactly as many times as my S&W 686 (that's a revolver kids).

Two weeks ago I came across a half dead deer on the side of the road, coming home from the range. I used the five seven to put the poor thing down, and the head/neck wound was probably the most gore I have ever seen besides fresh roadkill. I have no doubts to the lethallity of this caliber, seeing as one round of SS197 made such a graphic fatal wound on a living animal, where a round nosed bullet from the same distance could have potentially bounced off the skull.

Lightweight, very dependable, low recoil, high capacity, accurate, low maintainence and very easy field stripping. How are these bad things?

I've killed 2 (medium-sized hogs), and with both I put several rounds of ss192 (this is the hollow-point round that tumbles and does not fragment like the SS197) into them. Not sure how many it actually would have taken to kill them, but they were dead when I walked up.

The first one I shot I hit 2 times right off the bat,(straight into the side) missed with 2 and then put about 4 more in. It was not moving away from me after the first 2 (it was moving in kind of a circular out of control movement), but I was rapid firing so I killed dirt with shots 3 and 4. Shots 5-8 were all over it

The 2nd hog was a headshot (from the side) with round one and the next 4 were all hits in the side and then belly. It didn't move after the first shot.

These were both medium sized ferral hogs shot at dusk using the laser and the light on the M6. I normally hunt with a Russian Nagan and a .45 Baby Eagle. The weekend I got these I had forgotten my Nagant ammo so decided to try something different. Glad I did...It was a freaking blast to hunt hogs this way.


I always laugh when people badmouth the Five-seveN.... I have seen what it does to flesh, and it's definitly something to have respect for. The cool thing is I have also shot squirrel with it and it just leaves a little hole with ss192. A gun that you can realistically hunt hog and squirrel with is one kick ass gun indeed.

Now, some are curious as to the wound pattern. In the Squirrels, it's just a 5.7 hole straight through. In the hogs broadside it's a small entrance hole and a nasty cavity, but as you would expect the round stays in. How deep depends on what it hit. I didn't get exactly surgical so I can only tell you that the couple we looked at (one we actually cut open which unfortunatly for me was a gutshot that was just ugly as hell) were pretty impressive and about what you would expect from a .223 really. Honestly, in larger animals it ends up similar to, but below a .223, but the round stays amazingly unhurt. I actually have one round that was inside one of the hogs that we picked up a few months later in the spot where it rotted and aside from the rifleing it looks like you could stick it back in a shell and refire it.

I went out into the South Dakota wilderness this morning to shoot some of my 35 and 40 grain reloads (all functioned PERFECTLY with no failures of any kind with brass trimmed to 1.128 and 6.5 grn of HS-6 [OAL on the 35 - 1.46, 40grn 1.58])

Interesting though, as I was walking the 2+ miles back to my truck I stepped in a hole and sank up to my calf. The ground felt kind of strange and started to move. Something seemed to bite into my sole. Sensing that something was TERRIBLY wrong I pulled my foot out of my boot just in time to watch something furry and loud pull my boot underground.

I went to the hole and was rushed by a 20 lb badger. I opened up with the 5-7. First round took the top of the skull off. I dug out the hole and found several more badgers. I shot them all in the hole (SD law alows Badgers and other varmits/predators to be shot essentially at will) and then cut them open to see the damage.

It looked like a bomb went off in them. To see what a .45 +P+ would do, I shot one in the flesh around the shoulder. Blew it out the back. However the wound channel was not as impressive as with the 35 & 40 V-Max, probably because the badger was not thick enough for the 230grn hollowpoint to expand enough. The .45 just made a really clean hole through and through. I was unable to find much of either weight V-Max (just little pieces here and there, most still in the badger, depending on angle of entry).

In my opinion I think this round has GREAT possibilities for varmiting. I can't wait for the rifles to come out for it.

"looked like a bomb went off"

That's what the gutshot in the hog looked like. It was just nasty...everything was mushy and shredded.

Some asked about stopping power. Last winter, a 1200 pound moose cow was hit by a car,she was still standing up but had a broken leg. No way would she survive. State Troopers or Fish & Feather usually put the moose down. The Troopers were going to be busy for the next couple hrs,I couldn't see the moose suffering that long. I was able to drop the moose with one shot and fired a second shot once down to make sure she was down for good. I was surprised the moose went down on the first shot and I'm pretty sure she was dead before firing the second round.

I now feel comfortable enough to carry my Five Seven full time.

I have a couple of friends that have PS90's. They brought them on a hog hunt last month and I couldn't believe they were putting down some good sized hogs (150lbs.+) with one shot, maybe two of SS197 (blue tip). I would've never believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself. I even shot a 180lbs hog with one shot out of a PS90. At approx. 50yds the hog went down like it hit a brick wall. The 5.7 literally dropped that hog like a 7.62x51 (.308).

I've had one (Five-seveN) now for about three years. Probably put 400 rounds of 197 total through it. No failures, very accurate.

I quantify the effectiveness of cartridges by how they kill critters. I hunt with a lot of different handguns on a lot of different critters. My favorite critter for testing handguns is Javelina. I've shot them with 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP, 357mag... You can shoot two a year in Texas and where I hunt they are plentiful.

I shot one a couple years ago with my 5.7 using SS197. It chrono's out of my pistol at 1760fps. The Javelina I shot was at 60 yards. It moved as the shot broke and hit it in the left hip ranging forward into the body cavity. It went down with a broken hip but with the front end still up, so I shot it again behind the left shoulder penetrating the chest and off side shoulder. The little pig was dead quick. The bullet crossing the chest boiled the lungs and cut off the top of the heart. Pretty nasty wound.

It weighed about 45 pounds so not a big critter, but the performance was at least as good as any 9mm I've used.

This bit of info isn't about hunting but does offer some more data on the round that a lot of people have had success hunting with - the SS197 V-Max.

I have recently been seriously debating adopting this as a carry weapon. Obvious problem - this round has very very little documented real world data in self defense shootings. There are those that claim it is nothing more than a .22 Magnum. After extensive study and some tests of my own, I have concluded, quintessentially, that this simply isn't true and the sheer velocity of the round and its design to tumble and perform in that way similar to the 5.56x45 NATO (.223) round does infact make this cartridge at least potent enough to consider for real world self defense applications.

I will outline my test here - 5 frozen gallon jugs of water at approximately 8 meters distance. Shot with 158 gr. 38 special, 124 gr 9x19mm, 180 gr. 40S&W, and lastly 40 gr SS197 5.7x28mm.

38 spc - passed through with very little visible shock and basically a single channel
9mm - through with a decent amount of shock
40S&W - rather serious amount of visible shock and large exit hole
5.7mm - I wish I has photographed it. Essentially, complete devastation from shock of nearly the entire block could be seen. Unlike any of the other rounds.

 

[GBExpat]

Thanks for taking the time to put that together for us, G|0cKbYtE.

Verrrrrry interesting!

 

[MattShlock]

They're so odd looking. But neat. However, I watched a guy take his out on a practical course. Scoot n'shoot. He couldn't even get on paper, the little Rambo -- he was looking at his very expensive gun periodically as though he was trying to determine if bullets were actually coming out and, if not, where they were going. I was laughing so hard I got a stitch...

 

[Trent]

They're so odd looking. But neat. However, I watched a guy take his out on a practical course. Scoot n'shoot. He couldn't even get on paper, the little Rambo -- he was looking at his very expensive gun periodically as though he was trying to determine if bullets were actually coming out and, if not, where they were going. I was laughing so hard I got a stitch...

I'm going to compete with mine Sunday in our club's Highpower Sporting Rifle match - 5 stages with 2 of the stages being 200 yards.

I won the match last month with my Steyer SSG 69, the month before I took 2nd with a Swiss K31 bolt action.. I like to mix it up a little.

 

[Trent]

Shot it in both Sporting Rifle matches today.

Not only did I win both of the matches with the PS90, I set a new club record in Highpower Sporting Rifle.

On another note, had several FTF with the American Eagle, not going to rely on that stuff for home defense. But it sure puts nice holes in paper.

(Also won the F Class match today, but with a different rifle)

After the highpower sporting rifle and F-class matches were over, on a whim, I shot the PS90 at 300 yards. To be fair I had a spotter who was still set up from F-Class. However, after 5 shots I was dropping them in to the black on a 300 yard F-Class target from the bench. Put all 20 I fired on paper at 300 yards and 12 of those were in the black F class center.

Winds were perfectly calm, for what it's worth. But that little PS90 *will* hit reliably at 300 yards.

Man, I love this gun.

 

[Shipwreck]

Wow. Very impressive!

 

[GBExpat]

Ayup ... the PS90 is not alone in its impressiveness.

 

[kBob]

Glockbyte and Shipwreck,

Thank you both.

The effects on the larger animals was not what I expected and honestly those ballistic charts made a 50 meter zero seem quite reasonable for Military or Police work for most engagements (current events in SWA not withstanding)

My driver back in the early 80's would have loved one. I think he managed to get hung up on the door of our jeep every third time he tried to exit with his M-16A1.

I have always been interested in the Colt 5.7mm project that was to provide a large high cap handgun in a very similar loading with burst capabilities back in the late 1960s and the USAF ArmGun (something like the Bushmaster pistol of the early 1970s) in .221 Fireball For the arming of aircrews, drivers, Artillerymen, tankers and REMFs Basically any non Infantry. Shoot do basic training with the PDW and add the service rifle for Advanced Infantry training.......

From what you guys are saying the PS90 in either civilian or military guise might make more sense than either a riot gun or the "patrol rifle" in .223/5.56
for law enforcement use. Especially given lack of over penetration, yet excellent effect on flesh.

Now we just need to see some work on 150 plus pound animals wearing winter clothing.......

How much difference in muzzle velocity is there in the PS90 rifle and the actual PDW or a rifle SBR-ed to that length?

-kBob

 

[Trent]

kBob;

Cutting a 16" barrel down reduces actual bore length by 3.26", and results in a 90-150 fps drop depending on ammo. With a 16" barrel spitting 40gr projectiles out at just over 2,000 fps, it's not a huge loss, but it is a measurable one. (5-8% velocity loss)

I don't know what effect it has on accuracy, I have the papers waiting here to fill out to SBR one, but waiting on BATF to get straightened out on IL's new SBR laws before I file them. Several early filers got rejected by the BATF for SBR's. The NRA had the senator and representative who sponsored the bill that was passed, write the BATF letters explaining legislative intent. So it shouldn't be long now before the BATF starts to approve SBR's here.

 

[Trent]

Shipwreck, GBExpat;

Well, to be honest I was in the zone.

See, normally this club shoot is 'just a bunch of friends having a day at the range'. It's structured, and run very organized, but we don't have any "serious" competitors show up. So I'm normally up against home-brew AR15's, scoped Savage hunting rifles, etc.

THIS time, we had a fella drive about an hour to the match. New shooter, introduces himself and signs up. Then proceeds to unpack his vehicle ... He's got a highpower shooting coat, loop sling, national match AR, one of those spotting scopes on a tripod with a pole that comes up to adjust height, etc. I mean, the works. (I later looked up his name and found him listed on various state and regional highpower events). He's talking about his ammo, handloaded 66gr Nosler match ammo, etc.

So I'm sitting there in my RSO t-shirt, shorts, flip flops, with this little tiny popgun of a rifle, with crappy American Eagle factory ammo, thinking "Yeah I'm getting my butt handed to me this month."

Anyway.

The way things turned out, the first match I won handily, the second match he really buckled down and shot (what would have been) a club record.

Except I buckled down too. Flip flops and all.

The fact I can stand nose to nose against a veteran highpower shooter with all the trick gear, in nothing but shorts, flip flops, and the little PS90, speaks VOLUMES about this particular shooting platform.

We weren't shooting short range either; the match had 5 stages; 50 yards standing, 100 yards kneeling and sitting, and 200 yards bench and prone, 10 shots per stage, no sighters.

I put down a 427/500 score that second match to set the Highpower Sporting Rifle club record. (We shoot sporting rifle, as very few people around here have service rifles that would qualify for normal highpower rules.)

 

[Thermactor]

What next, you guys endorsing a 5-7 to go hunt polar bears with?

 

[Trent]

Note, on one of the 100 yard targets I also took a penalty as there were 11 holes. Don't know if I'd inavertantly loaded 11 in to the mag, or if another shooter hit my target on accident. But we had to throw out one of my 10x shots.

The 427/500 score works out to 170.8/200, which is Distinguished Expert level shooting for Highpower Sporting Rifle.

Not bad for a little pop gun shooting factory ammo with factory non-magnified optics....

50 Yards Standing


100 yards Kneeling


100 yards Sitting


200 yards Prone


200 yards Bench

 

[Shipwreck]

What kinda hold over did you have to do at 200 yards? Are you using the factory optic or some other aftermarket optic on a rail. If you stated that, then I missed it.

 

[Trent]

At 200 yards with that ammo I was aiming here:



The size of the red circle is approximate to the tiny center dot, as it appears from your perspective on the standard FNH Gen2 factory optic in relation to how it appeared from the 200 yard target perspective.

Yes, I was using the standard 2nd gen factory optic (the black T with center circle and center dot), not the old "White Donut Of Death" 1st gen sight. That first gen sight, was for all intents and purposes, absolutely useless.

EDIT: The wind was perfectly calm on those groups; it took awhile for the bullet to hit the target, so what you are seeing on the point of impact shift is spin drift. Normally that only plays in on fast moving centerfire rounds 300+ yards out, but it became a factor on the 5.7mm at 200 yards.

At 300 yards, when I shot, I adjusted left another 6" for spin drift, to drop them in the black. I was also holding over "somewhere about 3 feet" or so. Kentucky windage, man.

 

[Schwing]

BTW, I wasn't joking when I said I have one for each of my kids.

I had a dozen left in stock when I closed down my gun shop. I kept 8 (one to give to each of my 5 kids when they get of age, plus one for the wife, and two for me; one tri-rail and one gen2 optic).

Thanks for providing me with my new screensaver Seriously though... I am green with jealous rage.

 

[Shipwreck]

Thanks for the info. Yes, I had the white factory sight on my first one I bought almost 7 years ago. Itw as terrible.. I pulled that optic off, mounted a rail, and installed an Eotech. I had that PS90 for many years, but I sold that itearlier this year to help pay for a Steyr AUG.

I kept my 2nd PS90 I had with the black ringed sight, however. I do like that optic. It's my favorite carbine.

 

[Trent]

Thanks for providing me with my new screensaver Seriously though... I am green with jealous rage.

I'll pour some more fuel on that fire then. Here's my whole "FNH Family" (minus extras)



I used to have the combat shotgun they make, but sold it. Shotguns aren't my thing and it didn't "fill a role" for me. Their bolt guns aren't really to my taste either.

 

[Trent]

For what it's worth, out of the above guns I've shot each on this course now. Scored the highest with the PS90 (427). Next highest was the FN-AR (384), almost nose to nose with the SCAR score (381). (Shot higher scores short range with the SCAR, just had factory irons on it. But the FN-AR had a decent set of glass, so it shined at longer ranges.)

The Eotech is limiting me on the FS-2000. I scored the lowest with it (not even going to post my score...). I used to love the EOTech sight, but .. not so much anymore. It may be quicker but I'm far more accurate with both irons and scopes. I'm going to ditch it, been looking at ACOGs but haven't dropped the hammer on one yet. (Price! Ugh!)

 

[barnbwt]

Well of course you're having trouble with that Eotech, it doesn't match! Oh, and you're missing an M24X series belt-fed in that spread

And stop posting this stuff Trent, I'm trying to divert enough funds to buy a Steyr-Hahn 1912 plinker, and you're making it very difficult . I guess I'll just drive on bald tires a little longer

If only PS90 barrels were cheaper (500$ --really?) I'd love to use one for a little gas-op carbine I'm putting together that uses PPSH mags (it's dangerously close to short enough for 7.62x25 magazines, and with a hollow-point bullet, would probably fit). How many rounds would fit in a PPSH drum, I wonder?

TCB

 

[Trent]

Well of course you're having trouble with that Eotech, it doesn't match! Oh, and you're missing an M24X series belt-fed in that spread

And stop posting this stuff Trent, I'm trying to divert enough funds to buy a Steyr-Hahn 1912 plinker, and you're making it very difficult . I guess I'll just drive on bald tires a little longer

If only PS90 barrels were cheaper (500$ --really?) I'd love to use one for a little gas-op carbine I'm putting together that uses PPSH mags (it's dangerously close to short enough for 7.62x25 magazines, and with a hollow-point bullet, would probably fit). How many rounds would fit in a PPSH drum, I wonder?

TCB

Heh sorry barn!

I don't know how well the 5.7x28mm would work in a circular drum magazine. The round doesn't have the same taper as 7.62x25R (in fact, it's *nearly* straight walled until the shoulder). One of the problems early reloaders had with 5.7mm (or should I say, pioneers?), was the first Lee dies to hit the market would increase the taper of the body; resulting in jams inside the magazine that were impossible to clear without taking the base plate off and dumping the rounds. Lee had to give a bunch of people brand new dies to correct the flaw.

I was toying around with the idea of making a mini beltfed off the rounds, but won't be able to experiment until I get better machining tools (lathe is down). I was thinking of a scaled down RPD design since it's so simplistic. But, changed over to blowback designed instead of gas operated. Would use a 223 barrel blank and ream my own chamber; not spending $500+ on a barrel. Have to make it striker fired semi to comply with ATF requirements, obviously.

Dunno. It's on my list as a possible "when I retire" project.

EDIT: The 22 caliber gatling gun might be an easier conversion, and if it's crank operated could be a lot of fun.

 

[barnbwt]

There's so many cool applications for the round it's painful, right?

I joked a while back on another forum about a belt-fed Skorpion . A belt-fed mini-gatling upper would be pretty slick, too, though

For some reason I was thinking 223 was a hair smaller diameter, but Wiki says they're the same . That simplifies things, at least a bit, when I go to develop for calibers beyond 7.62x25. My little carbine idea is functionally a scaled-down SKS tilting bolt. Hopefully a bit nicer on the bra$$ than the blowbacks out there . Hopefully lighter and softer shooting, too

7.62x25 is actually just a stretched and necked down 9mm Para. Case heads and bodies are identical. One of many reasons why the PPSH mags/drums are great for all sorts of duty rounds (9mm, 10mm, 45acp, and their wildcats). Honestly, though, the P90 magazines work so dang well there's little incentive to try other delivery systems (besides, 5.7 would probably triple-stack inside there )

TCB

 

[Shipwreck]

Here is a pic of my PS90s from when I had two... (just have 1 now)