Ineffective .30 Carbines in Korea?

[mac66]

IMO, the Korean war myth is a result of skinny little Chinese wearing baggy quilted winter uniforms. GIs may have been shooting the uniforms but missing the guys inside. The perception of the GIs being that the guys hit weren't going down or the bullets weren't penetrating.

 

[BSA1]

I recall seeing some stats by the Army that over 80% of the '06 ammunition used by our combat soldiers in the ETO (Europe) during W.W.Ii was armor piercing. The tactic used by experienced G.I.'s was to try to shoot through the cover the enemy was hiding behind.

When new recruits arrived from the States they were trained not to shoot until they saw the enemy soldier. They were retrained to shoot at the cover the German was hiding behind with A.P. as experienced soldiers rarely showed themselves.

I imagine the situation with the Japanese was the same due to their heavy use of caves, bunkers and spider holes.

Sadly I have lost the source of the information due to a crash on a old computer.

 

[herkyguy]

So was it in the same family as the MP5 in terms of range/penetration?? If so, perhaps we are unfairly judging it when we compare it to the Garand.

Seems to me it had a place as a light carbine for folks who needed a lighter weapon. Good for the officers and folks a bit further back from the front lines, but maybe not so good for the paratroopers who we're jumping into the thick of it.

 

[USSR]

So was it in the same family as the MP5 in terms of range/penetration?? If so, perhaps we are unfairly judging it when we compare it to the Garand.

Range and penetration exceeds the 9mm subguns. Think of a carbine in .357 Magnum - ain't one gonna kill something that the other won't just as well. However, as you noted, it was always compared to the Garand instead of the 1911 Colt that it was designed to replace.

Don

 

[rcmodel]

but maybe not so good for the paratroopers who we're jumping into the thick of it.

Or maybe pretty good?

The M1-A1 Carbine weighs slightly more then half as much as an M1 Garand rifle.

So a weight saving of about 4 pounds between weapons to start with.

Then,
80 rounds of 30-06 in clips weighs 5.3 pounds.

2 loaded .30 carbine mags weigh 1.2 pounds.
An additional 120 rounds in stripper clips weigh 3.9 pounds.

Would you rather jump behind enemy lines with 80 rounds, or 150 rounds, if re-supply was going to be an unknown factor for days??

rc

 

[USSR]

Would you rather jump behind enemy lines with 80 rounds, or 150 rounds, if re-supply was going to be an unknown factor for days??

rc,

Depends upon the terrain.

Don

 

[Elkins45]

My Dad was on a mortar crew in Korea and was issued an M1 carbine. He had absolutely nothing good to say about them. He never elaborated on the reasons and I never pushed for an explanation. He was severely wounded and suffered the consequences for the rest of his (thankfully long) life, so it wasn't his favorite subject for conversation.

 

[javjacob]

I have heard some of you say a soldier would "wrap it around a tree". What do you mean exactly by that? I have never heard that phrase before.

 

[bainter1212]

I have heard some of you say a soldier would "wrap it around a tree". What do you mean exactly by that? I have never heard that phrase before.

You bash the gun against a tree breaking the stock and maybe bending the barrel. It's more an expression than anything else. Purpose was so nobody else would use it thinking it was OK.
My grandfather told me that they all had more ammo grenades and weapons than they knew what to do with. All leftovers from WWII. Even the C rations were left over from WWII. Half of them spoiled and rotten.
Grandpa says they shot deer and caught fish from the streams.....just brought it to the cooks who would prep it for you. Or if you knew an Air Force guy you could score some steaks from their mess hall.
Sorry for the off topic....

 

[herkyguy]

Or maybe pretty good?

The M1-A1 Carbine weighs slightly more then half as much as an M1 Garand rifle.

So a weight saving of about 4 pounds between weapons to start with.

Then,
80 rounds of 30-06 in clips weighs 5.3 pounds.

2 loaded .30 carbine mags weigh 1.2 pounds.
An additional 120 rounds in stripper clips weigh 3.9 pounds.

Would you rather jump behind enemy lines with 80 rounds, or 150 rounds, if re-supply was going to be an unknown factor for days??

rc

I certainly get the weight aspect of it.

As USSR said, if it's more aligned with a .357, I would be most concerned about the limited range. If facing down some angry guys who want to off me, it'd be nice to start pulling the trigger when they're still a few hundred yards away rather than inside 100.

All this talk had me eyeing the auto ordnance versions...... Dang it. That would mean another set of dies too.

 

[amd6547]

In the book "Last Stand of Fox Company", the failure of the carbine is discussed. Much of the fighting took place at extreme close range, bad breath distance.
The failures of the carbine were so evident that chinese bodies were examined during lulls in the battle. The use of drugs was noted, as was some of the Chinese wearing what looked like woven home made body armor.
It got to the point that word was passed down the line...."men with carbines, aim for the head".
Personally, I believe that part of the problem may have been the ammo. It is said that much of the ammo spent years moving across the Pacific in WWII in hot ship holds, or sitting in warehouses. That, and the -40 actual air temps in northern Korea may have affected the ammo.
I am a fan of the carbine, and am lucky to have gotten in on the last CMP carbine sales.
The little M1 carbine is a great HD weapon

 

[Nom de Forum]

...... It is said that much of the ammo spent years moving across the Pacific in WWII in hot ship holds, or sitting in warehouses. That, and the -40 actual air temps in northern Korea may have affected the ammo.

That is a plausible explanation for some problems that contribute to the stories but I don't think it is a major factor. I still think it is much more a case of missing the target and expecting the .30 Carbine's immediate effect on the human body to equal the .30-06.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Even the C rations were left over from WWII. Half of them spoiled and rotten.

My company (A-1/61 IN) was issued C Rations dated 1944 in 1969. They weren't rotten, by any means (after all, they're canned) -- but the cigarettes would burst into flames if you tried to light them.

That is a plausible explanation for some problems that contribute to the stories but I don't think it is a major factor. I still think it is much more a case of missing the target and expecting the .30 Carbine's immediate effect on the human body to equal the .30-06.

One problem exacerbating the carbine's shortcoming was making it capable of full auto fire -- in my experience, full auto fire from hand-held weapons is worthless in combat.

 

[Nom de Forum]

One problem exacerbating the carbine's shortcoming was making it capable of full auto fire -- in my experience, full auto fire from hand-held weapons is worthless in combat.

How can you possibly believe they are worthless? They are still one of the best handheld devices ever invented to convert money to noise.

 

[Float Pilot]

One problem exacerbating the carbine's shortcoming was making it capable of full auto fire --

YES !

 

[Vern Humphrey]

How can you possibly believe they are worthless? They are still one of the best handheld devices ever invented to convert money to noise.

And if you're a handloader, they're very good for converting cartridges to brass for reloading.

 

[Rapidrob]

Col.Melvin Johnson was well aware of the problems of the .30 Carbine not stopping the bad guys in heavy winter clothing in Korea. At 150 yards and beyond,a fatal shot to the body was more a shot placement than penetration.
My Dad was in Korea for his second war and he too had nothing good to say about the M1 Carbine as a combat weapon being used in the Korean Winter. He preferred the BAR.
Melvin Johnson used his vast knowledge of small arms and converted the .30 carbine to his 5.7MMJ. A little 40 grain FMJ out of a 1:16" twist barrel moving at 3,000FPS.
I've had my "Spitfire" converted M1 Carbine for a long time now and have to say it is a very impressive little cartridge. Not only will it penetrate a 1/4" face hardened steel plate, the unstable bullet will tumble when it hits flesh and bone leaving gaping wounds as the early AR15 rifles produced in the 'Nam.
Here is a plate I shot at 200 yards with a .30 Carbine and a 5.7MMJ Carbine. The 110 grain FMJ just bounced off after the jacket peeled back and splattered the core. The little 40 grain .224 FMJ tore through the plate.
If Col.Johnson thought that there was such a need to improve the M1 Carbines effectiveness, to develop his own cartridge, that is good enough evidence for me.

 

[Seven High]

SOT. What small arms were used by the NKA and ChiComs during thr Korean War? Was their equipment left over WWII also?

 

[Float Pilot]

During the first 3 months the North Koreans used all sorts of weapons which were hand-me-downs and or stolen from South Korean units which had been over-run.

1. JAPANESE 6.5MM and 7.7mm ARISAKA RIFLES WERE SURRENDERED BY THE JAPANESE TROOPS STATIONED IN KOREA AT THE END OF THE WAR. BECAUSE OF THE LARGE QUANTITIES OF RIFLES AND AMMUNITION

2. RUSSIAN MADE MOSIN-NAGANT RIFLE

3. PPSH-41 SUB-MACHINE GUN

When the Chinese joined the fight, they brought more WWII era Soviet type weapons and more WWII and 1930s leftovers. So in addition to the above you would also see:::

1. GERMAN AND CZECH MADE M-98 RIFLES IN 7.92x57mm
2. TYPE 44 MOSIN CARBINES
3. C-96 Mauser Broomhandle pistols.
4. MAYBE some SVT-40 rifles.

Due to the lack of marksmanship training the PPSH-41 Burb gun was very popular with aggressive shock troops. Those units closed for attack and used Burp-Gun and grenades to overrun positions.

Many communist troops were un-armed in human wave attacks or were armed with grenades alone.

A real problem during the initial attack which pushed the token US forces and South Korean forces down to the tip of the peninsula was the lack of anti-tank weapons.
The communist attacked using old Soviet designed tanks and the only Bazookas available were a few 2.75 inch WWII era bazookas with ammo which was at least 6-7 years old. And from what I have read, they did not have any armor piercing (HEAT) ammo available for the few bazookas they did have.
It took a long time to introduce the 3.5 inch Super Bazookas to the area along with enough HEAT ammo.

 

[Seven High]

Did the AK47 or SKS make an appearance in the Korean War?

 

[Dr.Rob]

I wish someone would give me one of those ineffective M1 carbines.

 

[Float Pilot]

Did the AK47 or SKS make an appearance in the Korean War?

AK-47 NO.

SKS, probably not..

While the SKS was developed in late 1944 and 1945, it did not go into production until 1949. So there is a remote chance that some Russian advisers had a couple for testing purposes. But the Soviets were still trying to get them issued to their own troops at the time Korea erupted in June 1950 with 200,000 communist troops invading the south with about 300 tanks in support.

There is no way they would have given away new rifles and they would not yet have had any spare 7.62x39mm ammo to give away either. Not when they had hundreds of thousands of M91 and M44 Mosins that needed a new home.

The Chinese did not start making SKS copies until 1956 or 1957.

The Soviet AK-47 had all sorts of initial production problems and was not widely issued until 1955-1956.


BTW: The communist were fighting other UN troops during the Korean war as well.
Troops from Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia showed up at the beginning.
They all had Enfields, and UK Sub-Guns,

Other nations providing forces included brigade or regimental size ground elements from Turkey,( the famed North Star Turkish Brigade) Thailand and the Philippines. Belgium using FN-49s, Columbia using FN-49s in 7mm, Ethopia, France yeah, flipping France..., Greece using Garands and The Netherlands sent battalions and little Luxembourg contributed a company armed with FN-49 rifles chambered in 30-06.

Some of the most famous bayonet charges in history was made by the Turk North Star Brigade in Korea. ( after some initial problems with poor leadership) They used Mauser bolt actions at first and later had US M1 Garand rifles and Thompson Sub-Guns.

 

[JShirley]

The preceding statement indicates that you in fact know very little. Pistols suck at stopping human attackers that are shooting at you. The problem with you and a lot of internet experts is your lack of real world experience. .

An even bigger problem than "internet experts" is a failure to actually read...as you have displayed. Saying the .30 Carbine is "no less effective than a pistol round" is self-evidently true, and as the poster noted, obvious. Read more and post less.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm guessing that blaming the cartridge was easier than blaming the marksmanship of the shooter.

I have 2 USGI carbines and I've done a lot of shooting with both. The barrel on one is getting close to used up but the other one is in very good condition. One can only expect about 5 MOA from an M1 carbine. Some shoot a little better and some a little worse. With ball ammo (which is what they used in Korea) the penetration would be decent at 100 yds but not great.

I suspect that their popularity in WW2 and Korea had more to do with the fact that the rifle and ammo were light and not it's stellar long range performance. My dad was in Europe in WW2 and his carbine went with him everywhere. He was a mess sergeant and never used it in combat. He said he mostly used it to shoot chickens and small game for the mess and for that it worked pretty well. He never wanted one in civilian life even though he was an avid deer hunter. That told me everything I needed to know.

 

[tom e gun]

I have an Inland M1 Carbine from the 40's and its a blast to shoot. I tested it out against modern body armor (an Army issue kevlar IBA but without the rifle plates sadly) and the .30 cal rounds punched right through the front and rear layers of kevlar and disappeared. Also tested a 12GA Mossberg 500 with birdshot and then with slugs. The birdshot obviously did no damage exceot chew up some nylon of the vest, but the slug knocked its way through the front layer and was caught in the back layer of the kevlar, kinda neat to dig it out afterwards.