Informal SHTF Rifle Shooting Poll

[444]

Wow, lots of replies since I went to bed.
Again, there are a number of reasons why I ask this question. First of all, it is just something fun to do with your rifle. I sort of chose 600 yards as a random number but also partly because it was mentioned in a recent thread. 600 yards is also the longest range in an NRA High Power match if I am not mistaken. Another reason I ask this question is (again) because we seem to spend a lot of time talking about things like fragmentation range of 5.56 Nato ball ammo and how we want a rifle capable of long range accuracy for SHTF and how the M4 carbine has proven to be a total failure in Iraq and Afganistan because it is only good at short range.................. Yet those of us who have actually tried shooting at longish ranges from combat type rifles from field positions find it very difficult to hit anything at these ranges even when we know the range we are shooting, no one is shooting back, the target isn't moving or camoflauged, there is no real time limit (the target isn't going to leave the area), the terrain is nice and flat, and we are not exhausted and malnourished.........................
My hope here is to make you think and to provide you with something to try the next time you go to the range. It is a goal to strive for, even if you don't think it has any practical purpose (like any shooting drill): just something to play with.
I appreciate hearing from all of you: I personally find it all interesting.

 

[rbernie]

Never tried it, in part because I've not had access to a 600+ yard range since I hung up my BDU's. And while it's a neat idea in general, I can't see myself trying it anytime soon since I don't see much use in it for me.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

444,Wanna know if I ever shoot/shot at 600 yds combat style?

ROFLMAO . You have gotta be kidding me right. MAYBE, I could see(and hit) a target at 500yds out, 1 of 5 shots from a cold barrel outta my M4gery by simply holding over my previous shots point of impact to adjust the next one, but if I can't see the target, I got no business shooting, right?

PS: I think off-hand shooting out around 100-150yds is better exercise, as it takes more skill than off the bench, kneeling, or prone, and is probably the most likely position you will make contact from...

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

We are having a 600 yard prone slow fire clinic this sat. at the range where I am the highpower director. We expect between 40 to 48 students. We will teach them how to hit that target at 600 yards with a open sighted ar15. Actual hands on and they will fire arond 50 shots at those ranges with the rifles and ammo we provide.

So yes not only do folks do it but there are some of us that go out of our way to teach it.
As far as myself I have taken one of my ar15's out of its case with police officers watching that wish to learn and layed down on the dirt and took the first shot at 600 yards on the waist up man size body target and just look at the wind and hit it in the heart. target goes down and comes back up and hit it again like less than 2" from the first shot. Target gets cleaned up and they run up two targets this time and I put 14 hits in each one in under 50 seconds.
I practice it in the snow, rain, heat and bad light and we use either a military light brown or od green target and they do fade out on you some days.
500 yards in is a easy deal but 600 can get dicy if your wind call is off ever so slightly.
Jon

 

[WayneConrad]

Just wondering what makes shooting 600 yards more important than close quarter training

It's the rifleman's quarter mile: If a rifleman can see it, he can hit it. It is a matter of pride, and a matter of preparedness. The long range shot is an American tradition going back to Concord, and a valuable tool. To ignore it and train only in close-quarters technique would be just as silly as training only for the long range shot and ignoring CQT.

Someone correctly pointed out that the 600 yard shot means you are at war. So it does. Every able American should be able to pull off a war shot if needed.

 

[chopinbloc]

i've never shot that far away. however i'd like to get into longer range shooting just for the challenge. i do know that i can reliably (at least 3 out of 5) hit a 300 meter target with iron sights. if i'm doing my math right a hit on a human size target at 600 yards requires about 3 moa accuracy, right? this is not unheard of.

What sort of SHTF situation would involve picking fights with people half a mile away?

yes it would be war. this is possible. civilians have found themselves at war with oppressors in the past and probably will in the future. if this happens in your lifetime the only advantage you would be likely to have against conventional troops is range combined with cover and concealment. i can tell you for a fact that most soldiers have difficulty with targets past 100-150 meters. training could fix that and our army is looking to remedy 50 years of bad marksmanship. but if we had to throw off the yoke of oppression today 7.62 NATO at six hundred yards plus would likely be the only advantage you would have. without resorting to roadside bombs and killing innocents, of course.

444, it was a good question and i for one intend to make myself a marksman someday.

edit: oh, i shot an m1 clinic years ago. i think that's done at 500yds. can't remember my score but i know i kept 'em all in the black with iron sights.

 

[USSR]

People on internet gun boards seem to place a great deal of value in long range rifle shooting in SHTF senarios.
They endlessly discuss how this rifle or this cartridge is more effective at long range (often cited as 600 yards or more).

We call them armchair warriors. They just love to talk SHTF this and SHTF that. SHTF = Some Have Tremendous Fantasies. Now if you want to discuss long range precision shooting, I would be happy to contribute what I know from shooting 1,000 yard F Class matches for several years. But if you want to discuss shooting AK's at long range, well, I'll just leave that to the keyboard commandos.

Don

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Don
got a question as I am starting to practice long range more and more . You having shot long range and being F class you get to see the mirage in REAL time so how much more wind do you put on your rifle for the same condition from say your at 600 yards compared to how much more you would add at 1K. For example you are going to add 1 minute for a 600 yard shot, What would it be for a 1K shot?
Just trying to get as much information put into head as to what others have already experienced. My problem at 800 to 1000 with my open sight ar15 so far as been not giving it enough wind. I catch the changes but I get alot of 9's out after I leave the 800 yard line. you having done it longer so you should have a better insight on it.
Thanks Jon

 

[Remington788]

600 yards with my SHTF rifle, probably not, but if I am shooting at someone that far away, I will put down my FAL and grab my bolt action .308. I have shot coyote's at 350 yards so a human at 600 is doable, but you had better make the first shot count because only a complete moron is going to stand still after getting shot at.

 

[GunGoBoom]

The answer is no, I don't. And I probably could not if I tried (well, by the 4th or 5th one out of 5, I *might* be able to *if* I can see dust from my misses). My gun club's range only goes to 200. I used to be a member of a gun club with a 600 yard range, but it was too far to drive to. I think the reason people talk about their SHTF rifles being effective at 600+ yards is NOT because of the idea of making precise hits at that range; but rather, because we, for whatever reason, project ourselves (and our rifles) into an imagined military role, where we MIGHT need our ammo to be effective at that range against a large enemy force - not from aimed fire, but from a sheer happenstance luck hit against the enemy, from a wall of lead laid down by you (me) and your (my) imaginary para-military commando group.

And besides, I have 3 STHF rifles...hmm, maybe I should narrow it down to 1 favorite - that's gonna be tough.

 

[USSR]

For example you are going to add 1 minute for a 600 yard shot, What would it be for a 1K shot?

Jon,

Depends upon the bullet and velocity. You won't find any .223's being used in F Class, as most of the bullets don't have high enough BC's to remain supersonic at 1k. My understanding regarding the .223 is that the 80 grain SMK with a BC of .420 is the only Sierra bullet really capable of 1k shooting, and it is marginal at best. I use a 6.5x55 shooting a 142 grain SMK (.595 BC) at about 2925fps. With my rifle and a full value 10mph wind, I would dial in a little more than 4MOA of windage at 600 yards, while 1,000 yards would require 8.5MOA of windage. The reason you would use more windage at a greater distance is that the time of flight of the bullet is the amount of time that the wind can influence the bullet. That's why relatively flat shooting rifles are typically used when shooting long range. If you don't already have an external ballistics program, I would recommend getting one. Just plug in your bullet's weight, BC, and velocity, and it will give you a lot of helpfull info. Hope I've been of some help.

Don

 

[Correia]

444, good question. Probably 95% of folks on the internet talk a lot more about shooting than they actually shoot. Brings to mind the old MYTH thread from TFL.

I've done it. It is very difficult. Can't do it freehand at all. Have to go prone or take up an improvised rest. 1 for 5? Yes, but I have to admit that only by watching for bullet impacts in the dirt and adjusting from there. So cheating in the context of this post. 1st shot? No, not with my current equipment and skill level. I'm primarily a 3gunner, and the vast majority of my rifle shooting is well under 300 yards and fast.

I'm willing to bet that the only people who can do this with service rifles on a consistent basis are High Power shooters and people who practice a lot (444 or Zak for example). For the majority of people who argue on gunboards, it is a whole lot easier to talk about what they could/might be able to do, than to actually practice.

 

[Ian]

I shot highpower matches a couple years ago, and did shoot at 600 yards with an iron-sighted Daewoo K2 and an iron-sighted M1A. My scores weren't great (miserable by someone like Jon Coppenbarger's standards), but I was hitting the target more than I was missing it.

With my current SHTF rifle (a tanker M1), I've only shot out to 300 yards (prone), but I was making about 75% hits on a silhouette. I expect I could make 20% at 600 yards, especially with a sandbag or other rest.

 

[buzz meeks]

Steel at 300 yards is pretty easy for me. But in a recent three-gun match I had a lot of close misses on a 400 yard target that looked like an Iron Maiden. So safe to say a 600 yard target would be safe from me. However, my SHTF rifle is an iron sighted Marlin 30-30. I run into such trajectory problems beyond 250-300 that I cannot make up the difference with the sights I have now. If I had a scope that would allow me to hold over and still see my target, I might could do things in the 4-500 yard range. It's an accurate rifle with a serviceable trigger.

I have done the 600 yard gong with my primary hunting rifle- a CZ550 in 9.3x62- as recently as yesterday. I hit it two out of five. I was prone, looped up and warmed up. It's still not a shot I would ever attempt in the hunting field.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I'm sorry to say that if the 50+ motorcycle bandits begin swarming my
neighbor's house 600 yds away, I will have great difficulty consistently
hitting them at that distance with my bushie shorty topped with the
trijicon reflex if the xwind gets too brisk.

However, after I've gotten the motorcycle bandit gangs' attention
and they begin closing the distance to my property, I will soon have
a target rich environment at much closer ranges.

Ah...now the odds are even....

 

[jobu07]

600, no. Furthest i've ever shot was 300 yards. But I was making consistant hits with an improvised rest.

...using a gatorade bottole while prone

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Don
Thanks for your answers. So that is what is the main problem for me is that not shooting long range since the 1980's I was wanting a jump on the learning curve. Will get alot of practice at 600,800,900 and 1K this winter with my ar15 to be ready for the long range and Palma matches over the next couple of years. A few of us want to make the palma 20 at the nationals. The closest anyone has come is 21st in 2004.
Trust me with what I shoot the 223 has no problem getting to 1k it is the fun of shooting a post front site and doing good with it is the challange for a few of us. We just can not let the AMU have all the fun. LOL
600 is no problem in most any condition but the lack of time spent shooting longer distances will take time. Do plan on 5 or 6 long range palma next year as the 223 is legal for it here in the states. Will build a long range rifle in a couple of years just for that but that is a year or so away as I still have goals in service rifle.

Thanks for the info. Jon

 

[pbhome71]

No, but I would love to try. Around my place, the max range is only 200 yds.

I can't think of any place that I can shoot 600 yds within 2 hours drive.

 

[Third_Rail]

I'm fairly certain that my 1917 can do it. At least 1 out of 5, 600 yards may be tricky, but even with surplus ammo, it'll work well enough.

I mean, if I can get all shots fired (21 total, 6 in the mag, 3 5rd stripper clips) into a 5" circle at 200 yards.... The rifle is capable of 1.7" at 200 yards (that was by a much more experienced shooter, from prone, using handloads out of this rifle)



While my rifle can do it, I rather doubt I can after really thinking about it.

 

[DMK]

I've never taken a shot beyond 200 yards, and I'm not even sure that one time was that far at that. I live in a heavily forested area. Hunters here rarely take shots further than 75 yards.

My rifles are roughly zeroed for 200 yards, but I would never take a shot farther than 100-150 yards unless it was a very unavoidable circumstance. I just don't have the facilities available to me to practice those kinds of shots.

 

[USSR]

Jon,

My hat's off to you iron sight 1k shooters. I tried it once last year, and it was a humbling experience. On top of the sheer difficulty of it, I found myself spending a LOT of time trying to make sure I wasn't crossfiring on a neighbor's target. Them targets may look big in the pits, but...

Don

 

[pauli]

no, i couldn't do it, and no, i can't see a reason why i'd need to.

would i like to try it? sure. would i consider it training for shtf? no way. there is no place in my house where i can look outside and see farther than 100 yards, and i can't see much reason for shooting anything way over there anyway.

maybe things are different in the desert.

plus, my rifle is a 22 with slightly bent sights, so 600 yards is a tad optimistic anyway

 

[Ian]

i can't see a reason why i'd need to.

It was once pointed out to me that being able to hit a large target at long range means being able to hit a much smaller target at medium or close range. If TSHTF, bad guys aren't going to be running around presenting perfect silhouettes (at least, not for long). If all you can see is a leg sticking out from behind a tree (or something along those lines), you'll want the marksmanship skill that comes from making 600-yard X-ring hits.

 

[R.H. Lee]

How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now.

How big is an IDPA silhouette target? Could I see it a 600yds without a scope? My own 'SHTF' rifle happens to have a 10x mildot scope on it. If I could see the target @ 600yds, I could hit it.

 

[Zak Smith]

It was once pointed out to me that being able to hit a large target at long range means being able to hit a much smaller target at medium or close range.

Certainly shooting small targets at close range will help you at longer distances, but it is no substitute for long range shooting. At longer distances, you need to have good elevation data and be able to judge the wind accurately.