Informal SHTF Rifle Shooting Poll
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Zak Smith
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You're right of course.
Too Many Choices!?
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Do more 150yrds and closer shooting from improvised and off-hand positions,
As I have said before, 2 shots from an off-hand position into a 6 inch circle(in 1 second or less), will change most B/G priorities. That equals an AR
...
As I have said before, 2 shots from an off-hand position into a 6 inch circle(in 1 second or less), will change most B/G priorities. That equals an AR
...USSR
Member
Exactly. The wind will eat your shorts at long range. Let's assume you're using a rifle in .308 and firing current issue sniper ammo (M118LR). In a 10mph full value wind, your bullet will be deflected 28 inches from POA at 600 yards. Since the IDPA target is only 22 inches wide, with a center hold, you would miss the target wide left or right (depending on wind direction) by 17 inches. Even a 5mph wind, which is really quite light, would cause you to miss. And, it only gets worse the farther out you go.
Don
pauli
Member
i don't go on long distance runs to improve my sprinting. there's a major difference between something that's hard to hit cause it's hard to see at that distance, and something that's hard to hit cause it's hard to see behind cover.
if you want to get better at hitting small medium and close range targets, then that is what you should practice. if you want to get better at hitting medium targets at long range, then that is what you practice. do skills cross over? obviously. is one a perfect substitute for the other? not in the slightest.
practicing a skill you'll never use specifically to get better at one you will, rather than practicing that one in the first place, is silly.
Zak Smith
Member
This is straying from the original point, as much as there was one, but consider this--
A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?
Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."
If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect.
A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?
Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."
If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect.
Greg L
Member
600? I don't think I have, it looked to be more like 450-550 where we staked out a whole bunch of balloons on strings (THAT was interesting as the wind kept blowing them around to the extent of their string - about 2'). With an open sight Yugo SKS (once I figured out the hold over) I was able to get a hit on a moving balloon 1-2 times per magazine (10-20%) with the rest of the shots close by. If it were a person out there, if not hit, he would be very interested in finding some cover. So if nothing else I feel fairly confident in making the looter/mutant zombie rethink his decision to come my way.
Interestingly enough I had a somewhat similar conversation on another board about this issue. The (nongun) guy was claiming that the NO looters would just sit back & pick off the police as they came into his area. My argument was that, except for lucky shots, the longer the distance is in a gunfight the winner will be the one who is better trained/has more practice.
Do I want to get in a gun fight? Not particularly but if I had to chose I would want it to be at very long distances against the average looter.
Interestingly enough I had a somewhat similar conversation on another board about this issue. The (nongun) guy was claiming that the NO looters would just sit back & pick off the police as they came into his area. My argument was that, except for lucky shots, the longer the distance is in a gunfight the winner will be the one who is better trained/has more practice.
Do I want to get in a gun fight? Not particularly but if I had to chose I would want it to be at very long distances against the average looter.
Thank you for posting this 444. 
I have shot out to 700 yards with a variety of rifles and ammunition.
It is a humbling experience...
Man sized target in the open at 600 and I get 5 shots? I could get a hit assuming no wind, any wind and all bets are off.
Of course anything other than a first round hit really does not count, since anyone with sense would drop to the ground after the first shot.
It definitely takes practice to compensate for range and wind, if you get the chance to shoot at a distance take it, at least you will have some idea of what it takes to hit a target at any real distance.
Consistently finding and hitting small targets at 200-300 yards is also a pain, and requires practice.
I try to be honest with myself about my limitations.
I have shot out to 700 yards with a variety of rifles and ammunition.
It is a humbling experience...
Man sized target in the open at 600 and I get 5 shots? I could get a hit assuming no wind, any wind and all bets are off.
Of course anything other than a first round hit really does not count, since anyone with sense would drop to the ground after the first shot.
It definitely takes practice to compensate for range and wind, if you get the chance to shoot at a distance take it, at least you will have some idea of what it takes to hit a target at any real distance.
Consistently finding and hitting small targets at 200-300 yards is also a pain, and requires practice.
I try to be honest with myself about my limitations.
I guess I should have mentioned that a SHTF situation would be alot different than sitting on the 500 yard line at Stone bay prone with a loop sling. But for people that hate staring at ballistics charts, there is a great free program out there called "rem shoot" it'll allow you to figure out your dope for almost any condition.
i live way out in the country where there is a lot of pasture. its been a couple of years but i hit a 2x2' styrefoam block at apprx (we just stepped it off) 500 yds with my longbranch and off the shelf at wal mart ammo 3 out of ten times. the buddy i was with had a mauser he had just bought and hit it six or seven times out of ten.
Sam
Member
As NMShooter said it is a humbling experience. I have lots of space to play with and work at long range with the M1 at least monthly. It is frustrating, irritating and abusive too. :banghead: But when the hits start to come it is highly satisfying. It is a worthwhile goal in itself and when you master it, you will be a rifleman.
Everyone should try it, with a service rifle. Contrary to previous opinions, it will improve all of your rifle work. Most of our shooters today seldom work beyond 200 yards because they never shoot off the range. I believe that people get so channeled in their thinking that they honestly believe there is no need to be able shoot farther otherwise they would make the ranges longer. You can say it will never come up, but it is a likely as the SHTF scenario you all yack about being able to control. If you want to convince yourself that you will never have to shoot past 2-300 fine, keep up the self hypnosis. Those that think you need a scoped bolt gun can keep up their hypnosis too.
Just make sure that no one has to depend on your shooting skill.
Take those rifles out and work them to their limits. You will run into your limits first, guaranteed. You have to master yourself. Get on it and make the rifle work for you. Don't let your weapon be the master. Find out what it is like to truely control your weapon. You have no idea just how good you will feel, or the confidence it will inspire in you. Nothing within your sight will ever look quite the same again.
Sam
It is a worthwhile goal in itself and when you master it, you will be a rifleman. Everyone should try it, with a service rifle. Contrary to previous opinions, it will improve all of your rifle work. Most of our shooters today seldom work beyond 200 yards because they never shoot off the range. I believe that people get so channeled in their thinking that they honestly believe there is no need to be able shoot farther otherwise they would make the ranges longer. You can say it will never come up, but it is a likely as the SHTF scenario you all yack about being able to control. If you want to convince yourself that you will never have to shoot past 2-300 fine, keep up the self hypnosis. Those that think you need a scoped bolt gun can keep up their hypnosis too.
Just make sure that no one has to depend on your shooting skill.Take those rifles out and work them to their limits. You will run into your limits first, guaranteed. You have to master yourself. Get on it and make the rifle work for you. Don't let your weapon be the master. Find out what it is like to truely control your weapon. You have no idea just how good you will feel, or the confidence it will inspire in you. Nothing within your sight will ever look quite the same again.
Sam
Hkmp5sd
Member
Never tried it.
bernie
Member
I shoot an M-1 rifle and do it fairly regularly. The key is to use good ammo, and practice as much as possible. Hits are made at that distance with an M-1 are more often than not for me.
Doesn't worry me.
We have vintage military rifle silhouette matches down here, at 500 meters. Lee-Enfields, K-31 Schmidt-Rubins, 96 Swede Mausers, K98 and VZ-24 98 Mausers, Mosin-Nagants, 1917 U.S. Enfields, Springfields, Garands, Krags, you name it. 500 meters = 547 yards. Which, coincidentally, happens to be the battle zero on my Springfield 1903A1. It's a gratifying sound when the bullet hits that steel, on some days you can see the impact flash or steel drop before the sound comes back to you.
Kinda curious about a defensive shooting at 600 yards, though. Massed blue helmets coming up the road towards the homestead?
We have vintage military rifle silhouette matches down here, at 500 meters. Lee-Enfields, K-31 Schmidt-Rubins, 96 Swede Mausers, K98 and VZ-24 98 Mausers, Mosin-Nagants, 1917 U.S. Enfields, Springfields, Garands, Krags, you name it. 500 meters = 547 yards. Which, coincidentally, happens to be the battle zero on my Springfield 1903A1. It's a gratifying sound when the bullet hits that steel, on some days you can see the impact flash or steel drop before the sound comes back to you.
Kinda curious about a defensive shooting at 600 yards, though. Massed blue helmets coming up the road towards the homestead?
Zak Smith wrote
"This is straying from the original point, as much as there was one, but consider this--
A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?
Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."
Quote:
A carbine is effective to hundreds of yards. Know your zero, and know how to make hits out to at least 300 yards. A poorly set up carbine with an operator who cannot shoot it beyond 30 yards is a waste of a perfectly good weapons system, and a danger to everyone around him when he attempts to employ it.
I recently RO'd a match with many nontypical competitors, who would be in a position to carry a carbine "on duty." The majority of them had a hard time hitting pie plate sized targets from 100-200 yards from stable positions like prone, braced, or sitting. The majority of the misses were WAY high (ie, feet), which indicates an inappropriate zero and little to no understanding of the basic trajectory.
Even if you think you'll only ever employ your carbine at "entry" distance, consider this for a moment: How far is it from the center of the parking lot at the Super-Walmart to its entrance, or from inside its entrace to the "back door"?
If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect."
Good post Zak.
Haven't done any formal shooting on paper, I'm guilty of rock shooting tho.
With a 1903A3 in near new condition, I could keep most shots in a 5 gallon bucket sized target at 800 yards with good 190 gr handloads. The M1 wouldn't shoot as good.
Have since had the M1 bedded and trigger work done, and it will consistantly hit rocks in the 5 gallon bucket size out to about 500 yards. Have shot farther with it, but it still doesn't make as many hits as the '03. 1 in 5 may be doable tho.
Have shot 303 Lee Enfield at 500 yards, it will hit an 18" rock at that range pretty consistantly. The Valmet M-62 clone would hit the same rock at 500 fairly well also.
I usually shoot longer ranges sitting, I always seem to find the cactus and other thorny things when I try to lay down.
I don't feel that shooting 600 yards is likely in a defensive or "shtf" situation, but I like to be ABLE to if I wanted to or needed to. The "bolt from the blue" seems to be very disconcerting to those it is directed towards.
There is a historical account of a man that was a prisoner of the German Navy. He managed to slip away, grabbing a Mauser rifle and ammo, and effectively keep the ship from making repairs, shooting single shots from long range. Cooper related the account several years ago I believe.
"This is straying from the original point, as much as there was one, but consider this--
A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?
Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."
Quote:
A carbine is effective to hundreds of yards. Know your zero, and know how to make hits out to at least 300 yards. A poorly set up carbine with an operator who cannot shoot it beyond 30 yards is a waste of a perfectly good weapons system, and a danger to everyone around him when he attempts to employ it.
I recently RO'd a match with many nontypical competitors, who would be in a position to carry a carbine "on duty." The majority of them had a hard time hitting pie plate sized targets from 100-200 yards from stable positions like prone, braced, or sitting. The majority of the misses were WAY high (ie, feet), which indicates an inappropriate zero and little to no understanding of the basic trajectory.
Even if you think you'll only ever employ your carbine at "entry" distance, consider this for a moment: How far is it from the center of the parking lot at the Super-Walmart to its entrance, or from inside its entrace to the "back door"?
If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect."
Good post Zak.
Haven't done any formal shooting on paper, I'm guilty of rock shooting tho.
With a 1903A3 in near new condition, I could keep most shots in a 5 gallon bucket sized target at 800 yards with good 190 gr handloads. The M1 wouldn't shoot as good.
Have since had the M1 bedded and trigger work done, and it will consistantly hit rocks in the 5 gallon bucket size out to about 500 yards. Have shot farther with it, but it still doesn't make as many hits as the '03. 1 in 5 may be doable tho.
Have shot 303 Lee Enfield at 500 yards, it will hit an 18" rock at that range pretty consistantly. The Valmet M-62 clone would hit the same rock at 500 fairly well also.
I usually shoot longer ranges sitting, I always seem to find the cactus and other thorny things when I try to lay down.
I don't feel that shooting 600 yards is likely in a defensive or "shtf" situation, but I like to be ABLE to if I wanted to or needed to. The "bolt from the blue" seems to be very disconcerting to those it is directed towards.
There is a historical account of a man that was a prisoner of the German Navy. He managed to slip away, grabbing a Mauser rifle and ammo, and effectively keep the ship from making repairs, shooting single shots from long range. Cooper related the account several years ago I believe.
ReadyontheRight
Member
I've done it, but all slung up and prone -- which I'm not sure you'd get a chance to do if you NEEDED to take a 600-yd shot. I'd assume if you need to take this sort of shot, you would then soon be taking a series of 500 yd, 400 yd, (reload) 300 yd, 200 yd, (reload) 50 yd, 10 yd shots and then going to bayonet.
I can hit the target, but not every time. And I'm not sure how I'd do with rotating-blade-propelled excrement flying all over.
I can hit the target, but not every time. And I'm not sure how I'd do with rotating-blade-propelled excrement flying all over.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
The original post talked about 600 yards so I believe that is what we started on and answered the questions on. 100.200 and 300 yards takes the same concentration to be very good at but as some have said you just have less to worry about. A reduced 100 and 200 yard slow prone target is a hard target untill you understand the skills it takes to clean it. And after you have the skills you are not happy if you happen to drop a point or two.
Now a fun target is the silhouete target that is only the shoulders and head.
Take it out to like 300 yards and get into a fast sitting or kneeling position and blast off a clip on like two of them in under 50 seconds with like 10 hits on each one out of 20 shots. or say the same target at 200 yards and try to hit like 10 out of 10 shots on one target in the same time frame. most all of the long range shooters I know are very good at close ranges.
The army believes some of the civilians are good or they would not of started asking them to teach marksmanship skills to the troops as they started to last year. In times like we are living our military marksmanship teachers are spead thin. The qualifications for a civilian are very strick and you can not even apply unless you are either distinguished or a presidents 100 recipient. Now having one of those skills tells the comander that the person can hit a target out to at least 600 yards from different positions in different conditions without a scope and do it well.
I am off this weekend to teach 600 yard prone shooting and it is our most favorite attended clinic as it builds great confidence in a shooter to make good hits at those ranges.
To show how important it is to be able to have those skills at long range. We have been helping our juniors on long range a whole lot this year. We even had a long range clinic and practice just for them followed by a prone match the next day with 40 shots rapid at 300 and 40 shots slow at 600. Two weeks later they are at the national championships. How did they do? We placed 4 teams in the medals and won the whistler boy title by 12 points for our first place team. It was won at 600 yards going away. lucky to have 4 teams in the top 20 out of all the two man teams in the country from Colorado? Not when you consider most all of them hammered it back at 600. One of the top marines even came up to us and told us it was the best 300 rapid from a pair of juniors she had ever seen. The next day they came back and won the 6 man junior team service rifle title by 6 points with one of the shooters having two misses at 300 yards.
Bottom line for me anyway is a person can practice the close range stuff most anytime but how many put in the time to learn long range shooting also.
It is so much fun me a few friends have a standard bet on the first shot at 600 no matter if is was a sighter if given or a shot for record if it was not. If you do not hit at least a 10 in any condition you lost. I own 3 ar15's and every one of them will hit what you want out to at least 600.
Now a fun target is the silhouete target that is only the shoulders and head.
Take it out to like 300 yards and get into a fast sitting or kneeling position and blast off a clip on like two of them in under 50 seconds with like 10 hits on each one out of 20 shots. or say the same target at 200 yards and try to hit like 10 out of 10 shots on one target in the same time frame. most all of the long range shooters I know are very good at close ranges.
The army believes some of the civilians are good or they would not of started asking them to teach marksmanship skills to the troops as they started to last year. In times like we are living our military marksmanship teachers are spead thin. The qualifications for a civilian are very strick and you can not even apply unless you are either distinguished or a presidents 100 recipient. Now having one of those skills tells the comander that the person can hit a target out to at least 600 yards from different positions in different conditions without a scope and do it well.
I am off this weekend to teach 600 yard prone shooting and it is our most favorite attended clinic as it builds great confidence in a shooter to make good hits at those ranges.
To show how important it is to be able to have those skills at long range. We have been helping our juniors on long range a whole lot this year. We even had a long range clinic and practice just for them followed by a prone match the next day with 40 shots rapid at 300 and 40 shots slow at 600. Two weeks later they are at the national championships. How did they do? We placed 4 teams in the medals and won the whistler boy title by 12 points for our first place team. It was won at 600 yards going away. lucky to have 4 teams in the top 20 out of all the two man teams in the country from Colorado? Not when you consider most all of them hammered it back at 600. One of the top marines even came up to us and told us it was the best 300 rapid from a pair of juniors she had ever seen. The next day they came back and won the 6 man junior team service rifle title by 6 points with one of the shooters having two misses at 300 yards.
Bottom line for me anyway is a person can practice the close range stuff most anytime but how many put in the time to learn long range shooting also.
It is so much fun me a few friends have a standard bet on the first shot at 600 no matter if is was a sighter if given or a shot for record if it was not. If you do not hit at least a 10 in any condition you lost. I own 3 ar15's and every one of them will hit what you want out to at least 600.
Chris Rhines
Member
Tried it out at Raton two weeks ago. JP-15, 500 yard steel mule deer target, prone, 68grn. BTHP ammo. I could hit the target, although first-round hits at that distance were tough. I'm sure that I could do one for five at 500 yards on an IPSC target.
I think that most casual rifle shooters have only the vaguest idea of their trajectory. If youknow your trajectory and have a reasonable hold, 500 yard stationary IPSC targets should not be a major issue.
- Chris
I think that most casual rifle shooters have only the vaguest idea of their trajectory. If youknow your trajectory and have a reasonable hold, 500 yard stationary IPSC targets should not be a major issue.
- Chris
Lonestar.45
Member
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2004
- Messages
- 1,077
"What I am basically getting at is, if the SHTF right this minute and you grabbed your personal gear including a rifle and ammo. How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now."
I have no idea, but, if the S were to HTF, I cannot imagine any scenario in which I'd be shooting at human targets from 600 yds away. That said, if for some crazy insane reason I thought 600 yd shots were going to be needed, I would not be grabbing the AK or SKS from the safe anyway, but the scoped 7mm Mag or 30-06, and I'm pretty sure I could hit 1 out of 5 at 600 with them.
I have no idea, but, if the S were to HTF, I cannot imagine any scenario in which I'd be shooting at human targets from 600 yds away. That said, if for some crazy insane reason I thought 600 yd shots were going to be needed, I would not be grabbing the AK or SKS from the safe anyway, but the scoped 7mm Mag or 30-06, and I'm pretty sure I could hit 1 out of 5 at 600 with them.
Zak Smith
Member
This is a good reason to shoot from non-traditional improvised positions, like off a ruck, braced on a vehicle, magazine monopod, etc.
I've done it with M4 (2002). I'm confident I can do it with my heavy-barreled FAL, especially when I put glass on it...does my MBR having a 24" free-floating HB mean it's no longer a MBR?
Regardless, I'm getting to the point where my "good gun for bad times" will probably change to something like an '03 with decent glass instead of an ultracool EBR. Bah.
John
Regardless, I'm getting to the point where my "good gun for bad times" will probably change to something like an '03 with decent glass instead of an ultracool EBR. Bah.
John
KaceCoyote
Member
After some thought, I've decided I could put 10 rounds on a man sized target at that range assuming my rifle was up to it. I love my Saiga like a child, but its no sniper rifle. With something like a Vepr yes, or a AR yes. My SHTF rifles arent long range focused, depending on the situation either my Saiga or the Marlin 60 comes with me...or both. Neither are tack drivers.
Dispite the fact that I posted more than once that this was not a discussion of specific senarios where 600 yard shots might take place, many people still posted their thoughts on the subject. Ok, I guess. I am not really interested in your SHTF philosophy: I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill. This is a drill, pure and simple. Can you take your SHTF and make one out of five shots at 600. It is really that simple: no catch. If your SHTF rifle is an AK, then that is the rifle I am talking about. If your SHTF rifle is a HiPoint Carbine, that is the rifle I am talking about. If your SHTF rifle is a 30 pound bench gun, then that is the rifle I am talking about. M1 Carbine ? Whatever. All I ask is that you be honest: whatever rifle you would grab on your way out the door if you were forced to flee right this second.
The point of grabbing your SHTF rifle in my question is that you are NOT choosing from a safe full of rifles like you would golf clubs from your caddy. You have a situation, you are forced to leave your house, you grab ONE rifle and leave the house. Most of us have a rifle in mind for that situation. Most of those rifles are milsurp type rifles, although your personal rifle that you would honestly grab is the rifle to use in this drill: not a specialized rifle. Not that rifle after you modify it for long range shooting: that rifle, as it sits. That rifle as it is as you grab it and head out the door. How many people answered this thread with the totally unrealistic answer that if they needed to make a shot like that, they would choose a different rifle ? They have a servent humping multiple rifles behind them so they can choose the ideal rifle for that particular shot ? Again, you have one rifle. You and that one rifle have to perform.
The point of grabbing your SHTF rifle in my question is that you are NOT choosing from a safe full of rifles like you would golf clubs from your caddy. You have a situation, you are forced to leave your house, you grab ONE rifle and leave the house. Most of us have a rifle in mind for that situation. Most of those rifles are milsurp type rifles, although your personal rifle that you would honestly grab is the rifle to use in this drill: not a specialized rifle. Not that rifle after you modify it for long range shooting: that rifle, as it sits. That rifle as it is as you grab it and head out the door. How many people answered this thread with the totally unrealistic answer that if they needed to make a shot like that, they would choose a different rifle ? They have a servent humping multiple rifles behind them so they can choose the ideal rifle for that particular shot ?
Again, you have one rifle. You and that one rifle have to perform.- Status