All this talk about SHTF has got me wondering...what sort of situations do you envision using your personal rifle in a SHTF scenario? A numbered or bulleted list would be great. NO DISCUSSION OF INDIVIDUAL RIFLES. Please name specific groups or entities instead of generalizing if at all possible.
SHTF Rifle Situations
- Thread starter Soap
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Drue
Member
1) food gathering
2) protection
Drue
2) protection
Drue
Andrew Wyatt
Member
What drue said.
in his order, too. I think a SHTF rifle is going to get used on the four legged way more often than the two legged.
in his order, too. I think a SHTF rifle is going to get used on the four legged way more often than the two legged.
BerettaNut92
Member
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Having to evacuate my home in the event of a fire, earthquake or chemical spill from the tracks a mile to the south. Since I moved out of Los Angeles, the repel boarders scenario just isn't nearly as likely.
ReadyontheRight
Member
Depends on the situation, but here goes:
-Arming the non-gun neighbors
-Protection of any perimeter if that makes sense in the situation
-Food gathering if we "head for the hills"
-Arming the non-gun neighbors
-Protection of any perimeter if that makes sense in the situation
-Food gathering if we "head for the hills"
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
1. Defense (2 legged and 4 legged)
2. Offense, as needed
3. Acquisition of critters for eatin'
2. Offense, as needed
3. Acquisition of critters for eatin'
QuarterBoreGunner
Member
I live in San Francisco. Any true Code Red SHTF situation and the whole city is going to turn into a dogs breakfast.
1. Defense/Looter Area Denial and Supression.
And that's about it.
1. Defense/Looter Area Denial and Supression.
And that's about it.
When I think of the term I always envision a scenario like the one in the movie "Red Dawn". This movie could have been named "SHTF". It involves the taking of game for survival as well as defensive and offensive armed engagements. Basic sporting firearms are used until enemy combat arms are acquired.
The downed American pilot explains how the Russians and Cubans carried out the enitre attack about 3/4-way through the movie. He even covers how gunowners were tracked down for disarmament. I can't remember if it was through Federal registration records or NRA subscriptions(or both), but I faintly recall "NRA" used in the scene. It's been several years since I saw it last.
The movie is around 20-years-old now.
The downed American pilot explains how the Russians and Cubans carried out the enitre attack about 3/4-way through the movie. He even covers how gunowners were tracked down for disarmament. I can't remember if it was through Federal registration records or NRA subscriptions(or both), but I faintly recall "NRA" used in the scene. It's been several years since I saw it last.
The movie is around 20-years-old now.
I'm not talking about situations as in applications, but rather in actual cases. For example: There is a dirty bomb that is set off 6 miles from my house, I would use my rifle to protect my home from looters. So what I am looking for is: Event X happens, I use my rifle for Y. Of course a rifle can be used for the things already listed, but I'm looking for what situations will actually drive use of those applications. I've hear people reference "Muslim extremists" but I'm not sure how I could use my rifle against Muslim extremists...enlighten me on the causes of SHTF and how you would use your rifle in that specific situation. Sorry if I wasn't specific in my original post.
E=MC^2: Wolverines!
E=MC^2: Wolverines!
Swamprabbit
Member
I consider SHTF a little different than most. I live in a generally rural area but the nearest town does have a small hospital, sewage treatment plant, small grocery, and a couple of gas stations. Nearby is a water treatment plant that covers at least three counties' water supply. My thoughts of SHTF would be any scenario where such needed supplies, such as electricity, would be lost and we would be left to fend for ourselves (this could be a result of natural or man-made events). As a community, we would go into action making sure that the hospital, sewage plant, and water plants are kept up for obvious reasons. If the scenario played out over an extended period, we would have obvious problems maintaining diesel fuel, and other necessities, to keep these things going. Also keeping food supplies up as well.
With this, firearms would be really just for security. Wouldn't really expect much problem but since big problems normally aren't expected we would plan on making sure we are defended. Law enforcement would be quite busy with other issues in this matter. There may be problems with a few people wanting to take advantage of the times to make trouble but around here, and in the mood people would be in by then, the troublemakers will not be making trouble long.
As a community, we should be able to get through quite a bit.
With this, firearms would be really just for security. Wouldn't really expect much problem but since big problems normally aren't expected we would plan on making sure we are defended. Law enforcement would be quite busy with other issues in this matter. There may be problems with a few people wanting to take advantage of the times to make trouble but around here, and in the mood people would be in by then, the troublemakers will not be making trouble long.
As a community, we should be able to get through quite a bit.
While there are certainly no absolutes in the personal protection arena concerning SHTF scenarios, the following should cover a whole lot to help anyone better understand things when people are facing already horrible circumstances… that are deteriorating fast.
THEM
First we have to agree that a certain percentage of our population is bad or evil. Call these professional bad guys. A lesser percentage of whom can even be called psycho.
Then we must add these guys to the mix …. Call them the opportunists. These folks will be waiting for any chance to advance their cause with your possessions, money, food or maybe even with your own family.
With that behind us, we then look to another segment of the masses that will NOT handle any major incident very well. These folks can be counted upon to act irrationally, to say the least.
Our last ingredient here will be a VERY overburdened law enforcement network (which is our usual protection from THEM).
Add all that up (and it’s all very real) and you have just established a reason for some concern.
YOURS
Most likely your chosen living locale will be inhabited by a vast preponderance of good people. These will be the honest, law abiding citizens. Nice nine-to-five folks who may have never understood that something this bizarre “could ever happen hereâ€.
They could be close friends of yours, or maybe even relatives. Most of them won’t have an effective defensive firearm between them, and certainly will not possess the training necessary to offer anyone any help in this area right now. We can assume that very, very few of them have ever visited a shooting range, or remember what really happens when you pull a trigger (if they ever knew in the first place).
YOU
You should be starting to grasp my meaning now. If you shoot regularly, as a hobbyist, you are in a special class of folks. Plus, if you’ve ever bothered to gather some “SHTF†weapons and equipment together, so much the better – the REAL better. For a rather modest investment, you now have a chance to make a real difference for yourself, your family or possibly even some others.
If you stay put (and have been granted some good common sense) you and others like you now have the option to insert yourself between the good and the bad if the want and/or need arises. If you’ve never seen the need for such firearms and equipment, no amount of “need†will produce them for you now.
The benefits of showing effective resistance to the bad side can be tremendous. It could save many lives, and possibly your whole neighborhood or location. You may be able to thwart such goings on with a bolt-action rifle, but if you or your lookouts failed (even a little) the gremlins may be infesting your location in a big way. If you have to get after them, and they WILL be armed, you had best own a rifle that’s up to the circumstances you’re facing. Going door-to-door with a Remington 700, or slugging it out in the street with pistols or shotguns simply isn’t meant for us older fellas – or anyone else that’s serious about winning.
Some of us are banking on these sorts of things never happening. Others are fully confident with their minimal weaponry (and their “skillsâ€). While others simply don’t wish to be bothered by such things, or even plan to flee these festivities.
For me, I probably won’t be going anywhere soon, and an old saying about sums it all up, “I’d rather have it and not need it …. than need it and not have it. Thanks.
YMMV
THEM
First we have to agree that a certain percentage of our population is bad or evil. Call these professional bad guys. A lesser percentage of whom can even be called psycho.
Then we must add these guys to the mix …. Call them the opportunists. These folks will be waiting for any chance to advance their cause with your possessions, money, food or maybe even with your own family.
With that behind us, we then look to another segment of the masses that will NOT handle any major incident very well. These folks can be counted upon to act irrationally, to say the least.
Our last ingredient here will be a VERY overburdened law enforcement network (which is our usual protection from THEM).
Add all that up (and it’s all very real) and you have just established a reason for some concern.
YOURS
Most likely your chosen living locale will be inhabited by a vast preponderance of good people. These will be the honest, law abiding citizens. Nice nine-to-five folks who may have never understood that something this bizarre “could ever happen hereâ€.
They could be close friends of yours, or maybe even relatives. Most of them won’t have an effective defensive firearm between them, and certainly will not possess the training necessary to offer anyone any help in this area right now. We can assume that very, very few of them have ever visited a shooting range, or remember what really happens when you pull a trigger (if they ever knew in the first place).
YOU
You should be starting to grasp my meaning now. If you shoot regularly, as a hobbyist, you are in a special class of folks. Plus, if you’ve ever bothered to gather some “SHTF†weapons and equipment together, so much the better – the REAL better. For a rather modest investment, you now have a chance to make a real difference for yourself, your family or possibly even some others.
If you stay put (and have been granted some good common sense) you and others like you now have the option to insert yourself between the good and the bad if the want and/or need arises. If you’ve never seen the need for such firearms and equipment, no amount of “need†will produce them for you now.
The benefits of showing effective resistance to the bad side can be tremendous. It could save many lives, and possibly your whole neighborhood or location. You may be able to thwart such goings on with a bolt-action rifle, but if you or your lookouts failed (even a little) the gremlins may be infesting your location in a big way. If you have to get after them, and they WILL be armed, you had best own a rifle that’s up to the circumstances you’re facing. Going door-to-door with a Remington 700, or slugging it out in the street with pistols or shotguns simply isn’t meant for us older fellas – or anyone else that’s serious about winning.
Some of us are banking on these sorts of things never happening. Others are fully confident with their minimal weaponry (and their “skillsâ€). While others simply don’t wish to be bothered by such things, or even plan to flee these festivities.
For me, I probably won’t be going anywhere soon, and an old saying about sums it all up, “I’d rather have it and not need it …. than need it and not have it. Thanks.
YMMV
-Protection from mob in case of a large-scale riot (LA, Cincinnati)
-Protection from plunderer(s) after a temporary breakdown of social order.
Having lived through both the Loma Prieta quake in '89 (fortunately NO rioting, just a lot of helping each other out) AND Hurricane Andrew (limited looting afterwards) the latter scenario does not seem as far-fetched to me as it used to.
LA and more recently, Cincinnati, have shown the first scenario is possible.
Fact is, most urban areas have much less than a 30-day food supply in the immediate area. Any breakdown in transportation infrastructure, and people will get hungry and desperate fast.
After the Loma Preta quake, the line at the local safeway was nearly a mile long. No power, no credit cards accepted. A few people at a time were let in with flashlights and an escort. Pay cash.
Because damage was limited, resupply was not a problem. People could generally drive far enough to get more food & fuel. If damage had been more widespread, it may have been a bigger problem.
-Protection from plunderer(s) after a temporary breakdown of social order.
Having lived through both the Loma Prieta quake in '89 (fortunately NO rioting, just a lot of helping each other out) AND Hurricane Andrew (limited looting afterwards) the latter scenario does not seem as far-fetched to me as it used to.
LA and more recently, Cincinnati, have shown the first scenario is possible.
Fact is, most urban areas have much less than a 30-day food supply in the immediate area. Any breakdown in transportation infrastructure, and people will get hungry and desperate fast.
After the Loma Preta quake, the line at the local safeway was nearly a mile long. No power, no credit cards accepted. A few people at a time were let in with flashlights and an escort. Pay cash.
Because damage was limited, resupply was not a problem. People could generally drive far enough to get more food & fuel. If damage had been more widespread, it may have been a bigger problem.
Now the rubber is meeting the road! Good responses.
Warner- I understand the implications of self defensive, and God forbid, offensive riflecraft. BTW- My offensive is an AR with 12 mags loaded and in a carry rig...but anyway, I'm more interested in the why, not the what happens after SHTF. If you look at any of the oddball cases in recent memory, a rifle would have been nearly useless. So I'm looking for real deal, plausible cases where the rifle would be useful. You mention door-to-door fighting, saving neighborhoods, and slugging it out on the street with what I assume are the professional BGs. I'm dying to know who the professional bad guys are and consequently how you would use a rifle to defeat them.
Warner- I understand the implications of self defensive, and God forbid, offensive riflecraft. BTW- My offensive is an AR with 12 mags loaded and in a carry rig...but anyway, I'm more interested in the why, not the what happens after SHTF. If you look at any of the oddball cases in recent memory, a rifle would have been nearly useless. So I'm looking for real deal, plausible cases where the rifle would be useful. You mention door-to-door fighting, saving neighborhoods, and slugging it out on the street with what I assume are the professional BGs. I'm dying to know who the professional bad guys are and consequently how you would use a rifle to defeat them.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
I'd say that a rifleman is most likely be useful for covering a person who, carrying concealed, ventures out to investigate suspicious happenings. If something wierd/hostile occurs, cover fire would enable retreat.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
The rifle is always better in a defensive posture because you can project to a greater distance with more firepower. The BGs will probably have handguns, shotguns and subguns. Better to hold them off and find out their intentions.
Devonai
Member
If there is ever that level of civil unrest in Massachusetts, I'll be way too busy trying to get myself to the rally point to worry about my own neighborhood... which at this point is, hopefully, rural enough to be safe from the worst of it. My roommate is NHNG, so he'll probably be called up to Manchester even if the problem is limited to the Boston area, what with the current level of deployment of infantry and MP companies out of Mass. The AG will probably need help from out-of-state Guard units for the kind of scenario we're talking about. Point is, that leaves my neighborhood without us and we with our own heap of problems.
If my roommate and I don't get called, for whatever reason, and we have hooligans wandering around Londonderry, we may dig out the commo and run simple perimeter checks to make sure our cars (and the neighbors' by proxy) aren't getting trashed.
In that case, I question the wisdom of carrying long arms outside of the home. If the cops do actually manage to patrol my neighborhood I'd really rather not draw attention to myself (assuming they see me in the first place). A concealed pistol or two is much more practical and should be plenty of firepower, if only to fight my way back to the apartment where the long arms are kept. It might also prevent said hooligans from shooting first and asking questions later, or prevent neighbors themselves firing upon me.
If my roommate and I don't get called, for whatever reason, and we have hooligans wandering around Londonderry, we may dig out the commo and run simple perimeter checks to make sure our cars (and the neighbors' by proxy) aren't getting trashed.
In that case, I question the wisdom of carrying long arms outside of the home. If the cops do actually manage to patrol my neighborhood I'd really rather not draw attention to myself (assuming they see me in the first place). A concealed pistol or two is much more practical and should be plenty of firepower, if only to fight my way back to the apartment where the long arms are kept. It might also prevent said hooligans from shooting first and asking questions later, or prevent neighbors themselves firing upon me.
7.62FullMetalJacket
Member
Well, there are many scenarios which would require absolutely different responses. The rifle would be good for stationary/lockdown mode with no social structure. If we move into a quasi state of emergency where the police are still functioning, then you do not want to be seen with a rifle in the city. Concealment and cover.
Guns are like tools, there are certian jobs that require certian tools. Lucky for me I have an extensive tool collection 
I agree with the previous posters in any situation where you would be out and about and there was some law and order still going you wouldn't want to draw the attention of law enforcement/nat guard by having a rifle in plain view, if somethhing of that magnitude happened the "good guys" don't know you or your intentions and best case you would be detained and prevented from completing the task you were attempting to do, worst case you would be dead or on the lam forever if order was restored.
I have thought about many different SHTF's that could happen and most of them would require trading firepower for stealth and staying put.
The one situation that would cause me to "suit up" and rock and roll is where there is a huge regional disaster (man made or other) and I was seperated from my family. At that point I would round up my family doing my best to avoid any resistance and bug out to either our west safe haven or our north safe haven. If that happened I keep ready in my mode of transport the following:
Car-15,lots of mags, 12gauge,IIa kevlar helmet, level IIIa+ceramic rifle plates for the torso, handgun, enough food/water/fuel to make it to primary safe haven w/o stopping for anything.
Sadly the NFA and AWB prevent most from owing a carbine that could be readly kept out of sight. The 14.5", Collapsable stock m4ergy would be perfect for that role
I agree with the previous posters in any situation where you would be out and about and there was some law and order still going you wouldn't want to draw the attention of law enforcement/nat guard by having a rifle in plain view, if somethhing of that magnitude happened the "good guys" don't know you or your intentions and best case you would be detained and prevented from completing the task you were attempting to do, worst case you would be dead or on the lam forever if order was restored.
I have thought about many different SHTF's that could happen and most of them would require trading firepower for stealth and staying put.
The one situation that would cause me to "suit up" and rock and roll is where there is a huge regional disaster (man made or other) and I was seperated from my family. At that point I would round up my family doing my best to avoid any resistance and bug out to either our west safe haven or our north safe haven. If that happened I keep ready in my mode of transport the following:
Car-15,lots of mags, 12gauge,IIa kevlar helmet, level IIIa+ceramic rifle plates for the torso, handgun, enough food/water/fuel to make it to primary safe haven w/o stopping for anything.
Sadly the NFA and AWB prevent most from owing a carbine that could be readly kept out of sight. The 14.5", Collapsable stock m4ergy would be perfect for that role
an addition to my post, unless there is a dire need in most SHTF cases its at best risky and could be considerd foolish to undertake offensive missions as individual, wait until you can form up at least a 3-4 man team. If its chi-coms/blue helmets/or even gang bangers they will be traveling in packs/squads and engaging with those odds even if only by harrasing sniper fire will just draw unwanted attention, it would be best to escape and regroup before going on the offensive, if you have a place to go outside of the SHTF area property is not worth dying for. I know some people dont have the luxury of having remote places to bug out for them, hopefull they could make friends in the same area so they could collapse and defend an area
Possible causes? Oh man, the one that will probably happen will be something we can't predict. But, just for the sake of discussion: (1) terrorist attack (nuke, chem, bio, dirty bomb), (2) weather (hurricanes, tornados, blizzards, floods, drought), (3) disease (evolution of existing bugs or tramsmittal of existing ebola, marberg, smallpox, etc., (4) volcanos (including the big ones, as in the Yellowstone caldera may be getting ready, sometime in the next few hundred generations, maybe sooner, to deposit three feet of ash over North America), (5) collisions with space objects like comets or asteroids (they wiped out the dinosaurs and seriously dissed Siberia 100 years ago), (6) accidental nuclear launches (by us or them, who knows what the response will be), (7) economic depression and/or political coup/revolution, (8) accidental release of icky bio/nano tech agents, (9) Hillary gets elected president, (10) big solar flare that fries all electronics, (11) major earthquakes, and (12) all the other stuff I can't even think of right now.
Okay, I'm probably tin-hat material just for producing a list like this, but the truth is that any one of them could happen. If they don't, great, but if they do, we'll all have to deal with mass panic situations, localized or otherwise. Any one of these scenarios could result in bad or desperate guys looking for food, water, and shelter from easy victims. I don't plan to be an easy victim.
Okay, I'm probably tin-hat material just for producing a list like this, but the truth is that any one of them could happen. If they don't, great, but if they do, we'll all have to deal with mass panic situations, localized or otherwise. Any one of these scenarios could result in bad or desperate guys looking for food, water, and shelter from easy victims. I don't plan to be an easy victim.
Beetle Bailey
Member
Okay, here goes:
1. A riot or other type of civil unrest occurs (can't say that's not a possibility here in LA). If it's anything like the last one, the looters won't be going door to door. They will loot businesses. Since I don't own any businesses, I would just hole up in the house with rifles at the ready. At some point, order would be restored (hopefully before I run out of food and water) and then it's back to normal. The rifles would be just in case someone was stupid enough to try to get my meager supplies when there are several supermarkets within a two mile radius. And same thing with earthquakes, floods, etc.
2. A "dirty bomb" is detonated in the city. I'm getting the Duck out of Fodge. I just go east until the gas runs out. I either learn to hunt with the rifle or starve.
3. North Korea hits us with a nuke. I hold my rifles one last time and we all die a fiery death. (This is one depressing thread. . . )
1. A riot or other type of civil unrest occurs (can't say that's not a possibility here in LA). If it's anything like the last one, the looters won't be going door to door. They will loot businesses. Since I don't own any businesses, I would just hole up in the house with rifles at the ready. At some point, order would be restored (hopefully before I run out of food and water) and then it's back to normal. The rifles would be just in case someone was stupid enough to try to get my meager supplies when there are several supermarkets within a two mile radius. And same thing with earthquakes, floods, etc.
2. A "dirty bomb" is detonated in the city. I'm getting the Duck out of Fodge. I just go east until the gas runs out. I either learn to hunt with the rifle or starve.
3. North Korea hits us with a nuke. I hold my rifles one last time and we all die a fiery death. (This is one depressing thread. . .
)First, no one ever suggested going it alone. But individuals that can actually assist in this kind of endeavor will not be commonplace.
Mr. Flory asked about BG’s.
BG’s can be singles, travel in pairs or greater, up to and including that proverbial outlaw MC gang. They may be gang members, or just long-term disenfranchised individuals with poor attitudes from places that didn’t have nearly as many supplies as yours, and they combined “forcesâ€, and then took undue notice of your supplies.
Make no mistake here. The real criminal BG believes you and I to be merely sheep when compared to his wolf persona. He thinks (and is correct) that he can accomplish things like a home invasion with little more than his loud voice and gruff manner. Chances are that he won’t find one of US at home (we are seldom that lucky). He WILL find some of those nicer and more mild mannered folks mention earlier. Usually these types will strive to avoid doing anything that upsets him. Those sorts of things would be cancers of the worst kind if it were taking place anywhere near your location. Then just multiply this (and him) times 2 or 5 or 10 (or more) to gauge things for any response that you're planning on making, and which rifle you'd like to have in your hands.
You’ll probably find a BG possessing all manner of small, medium and large handguns, shotguns, pistol carbines and the occasional AR, AK or SKS. Seldom (but maybe) will you find any bigger stuff.
If and when it’s time to clean house, we’ll need, among other things, weapons that have superior range, superior barrier penetration and follow-ups and superior terminal ballistics after barrier penetration to his. We’ll need to know that nearly whatever he chooses to hide behind, we will come out ahead. Rest assured (if we have some luck) that he’ll quickly understand our position by all those 2600+ fps/nearly 150 grain/.30 caliber bullets that somehow keep finding him.
It won’t matter if it’s 20 yards or 200; if it's a home invader or something else. Any proven deadly threat to you and yours (under such circumstances) simply has to go, and YOU need to possess the means to do that before he has any chance to do anything at all.
Of course, this would be under SHTF conditions.
Mr. Flory asked about BG’s.
BG’s can be singles, travel in pairs or greater, up to and including that proverbial outlaw MC gang. They may be gang members, or just long-term disenfranchised individuals with poor attitudes from places that didn’t have nearly as many supplies as yours, and they combined “forcesâ€, and then took undue notice of your supplies.
Make no mistake here. The real criminal BG believes you and I to be merely sheep when compared to his wolf persona. He thinks (and is correct) that he can accomplish things like a home invasion with little more than his loud voice and gruff manner. Chances are that he won’t find one of US at home (we are seldom that lucky). He WILL find some of those nicer and more mild mannered folks mention earlier. Usually these types will strive to avoid doing anything that upsets him. Those sorts of things would be cancers of the worst kind if it were taking place anywhere near your location. Then just multiply this (and him) times 2 or 5 or 10 (or more) to gauge things for any response that you're planning on making, and which rifle you'd like to have in your hands.
You’ll probably find a BG possessing all manner of small, medium and large handguns, shotguns, pistol carbines and the occasional AR, AK or SKS. Seldom (but maybe) will you find any bigger stuff.
If and when it’s time to clean house, we’ll need, among other things, weapons that have superior range, superior barrier penetration and follow-ups and superior terminal ballistics after barrier penetration to his. We’ll need to know that nearly whatever he chooses to hide behind, we will come out ahead. Rest assured (if we have some luck) that he’ll quickly understand our position by all those 2600+ fps/nearly 150 grain/.30 caliber bullets that somehow keep finding him.
It won’t matter if it’s 20 yards or 200; if it's a home invader or something else. Any proven deadly threat to you and yours (under such circumstances) simply has to go, and YOU need to possess the means to do that before he has any chance to do anything at all.
Of course, this would be under SHTF conditions.
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