informers among us

[Tokugawa]

A thread about a police effort to get people to inform on gun owners for a $1000 reward got me to start this new thread.

I want to address the increasing "informer" mentality. Call 1 8000 dog S++T It started around here with drugs,then littering, then traffic laws, then all sorts of minor civil offenses, now it is firearms. (and also people who do not pick up their dog waste.)

During the Terror, following the French revolution, people were routinely turned in for perceived offenses, old grudges, jealousy, etc. We have seen the "restraining orders used like this today". How convienent for a person to turn in Joe Blow for an illegal gun, even though he owns it legally,he will have a special response team show up (cause he is "dangerous"),e will likely be arrested and will likely never see his legal gun again, and it will cost him big time.
We have to realize, there is no down side for false info, unless you mess with the connected. So this is a perfect way to make someones life hell at no risk.
I submit the practice of anonymous informing is anti freedom to the core.

One has to understand in much of todays society, people do not realize ANY gun is legal. So as well as malicious actions, there will be many "well meaning snitches" causing grief.

Comments?

 

[Bruce333]

I want to address the increasing "informer" mentality.

Off Topic for THR...

This would be better suited for APS.

 

[Tokugawa]

Talking about how gun owners may have their civil liberties impaired is off topic?

 

[jerkface11]

If you read the threads about unjustified police shootings you will see the people who would rat you out. They're the ones defending the officers no matter what. Because the police are always right.

 

[WildcatRegi]

Uniformed and liking it

"One has to understand in much of todays society, people do not realize ANY gun is legal. So as well as malicious actions, there will be many "well meaning snitches" causing grief."

There's a lot of truth to that.

A buddy of mine was cleaning his 1861 Springfield muzzleloader in his backyard and a distant neighbor called the police about 'a man with a gun'.

I'm sure she thought she was doing her civic duty - all the worse.

Luckily, the police just found it interesting and talked to him about muzzleloaders and his Civil War activities, I think one of them even showed an interest in joining.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpI0zcaEjA

 

[joab]

a police effort to get people to inform on gun owners for a $1000 reward

I used to work for a big pest control company that participated in a police sponsored program that encouraged us to report what we thought were inappropriate activities.
When the story hit the papers it was reported that we were only calling in suspicious activities such as someone crawling through a window. But the truth was that we were also supposed to report things we found in the homes, and "excessive number of guns" was on the list, along with some politically incorrect activities.
Most of us just ignored the program, I quit the day after it hit the papers out of embarrassment
Many many companies are participating in this program, the local cable provider was also mentioned in the article

The 20+ years that I worked in pest control it was common practice for the bug guy to inform on tenants to the management (cliff dwellers keep that in mind)
Most techs won't do it until they feel that they have developed a deep personal relationship with the manager or the whoever the cutest office girl is, that usually takes about a month or two.
I had a pretty good boss who's personal policy was if anyone informed on one of his customers for anything less than murder or child molesting they would be terminated, he was an ex-cop

If you read the threads about unjustified police shootings you will see the people who would rat you out. They're the ones defending the officers no matter what. Because the police are always right.

Ridiculously simplistic, unnecessary and inflammatory remark

 

[JWarren]

Threads like this really make me appreciate how fortunate I am to live in an area where firearms are a way of life rather than a cause for a 911 call.

The last time I had a LEO deal with any of my firearms was during a routine DUI checkpoint years ago. The officers asked if they could come by and shoot it that coming weekend.



John

 

[rbernie]

Off Topic for THR...

This topic *is* gun related, and we talked about it recently when the NYC 'rat out a gunnie for a grand' program was highlighted. Those that felt the use of informants to be A Good Thing made their opinions known, and those that found the practice to be disgusting also said as much. In the end, it appeared that nobody's opinion was changed much for the discourse. The delta between the camps seemed to be whether or not you believed the NYC ban on unlicensed firearms was legal; those that felt it legal didn't have an issue with the program, and those who felt the law to be unconstitutional felt that disobedience of the law was just fine, that mere possession of a firearm illegally was in essence a victimless crime that ought not be punished.

A paid informant is a spy, and while we generally consider it useful when people spy FOR us, we generally don't like it when they spy AGAINST us. There is no doubt that the use of 'CrimeSolvers/CrimeStoppers' tip/reward programs *has* made a difference in specific instances, and can be helpful. There is also no doubt that these programs largely do not have significant checks-n-balances to sanction the informant for providing false/misleading data, which can lead to very very unfortunate consequences for the unjustly accused. In the end, it appears that the program proponents believe that the criminal justice system will weed out the wheat from the chaff just fine, and the program opponents believe that forcing anyone to go through that process unjustly is reason enough to take a different approach. These programs play upon our basest nature, and you can either look at things realistically (it's the nature of the beast, so ya might as well use it) or look at things optimistically (we shouldn't encourage people to live in contention and competition and fear).

My pushback vis-a-vis the NYC program was simply that the NYCPD stats on the program showed that they paid far more in rewards than they had convictions for illegal weapons. That gap can only mean that a bunch of folk got jacked up but ultimately acquitted, and somebody else got a grand for having turned in their fellow citizen. Until that ratio begins to approach one-to-one, I'm going to have to look at the program with a jaundiced eye.

In the end, I'm not going to live in a world where I cannot trust my neighbor not to rat me out for financial gain. My immediate response, therefore, is to not live in NYC.

 

[Tokugawa]

JOAB, that is a frightening story. Having a the police solicit info in a "net-casting" method, and recruiting service industries to act as spies is a tactic associated with a police state. What state were you working in, may I ask?

 

[pcosmar]

Tokugawa
"What state were you working in, may I ask?"

I believe that would be A Police State.
Some of our government would like us to all be "Good Germans" and inform on any undesirables.
Civic duty is one thing, snitching out friends and neighbors for profit is another.

 

[utahminirevolver]

Joab and rbernie +1

Informers have their place in reporting real criminals -murderers, rapists, etc. John Walsh on America's Most Wanted rightly berated some gangbangers or their unscrupulous shopkeeper-enablers who were intimidating good citizens with Tee-shirts reading something like "Don't Be A Snitch".

On the other hand, Alexandr Solzhenitsyn wrote of how "political" inmates of the Gulag Archipeligo (mostly mild dissenters against leftist totalitarianism) started to become genuinely politically active by assassinating some stool pigeons they detected in their midst, as a type of pre-emptive self-defense.

 

[joab]

What state were you working in, may I ask?

I live in Florida but I don't think it is confined to here.

The apartment informer thing is pretty common from bugmen I have talked to across the country.

In almost 25 years I only reported one thing
A man had left some pictures of a very young girl that lived in the complex on the counter where I always leave my card
I called my boss who dropped what he was doing to come and meet with management and a little later the police
I later found out that he was sort of friend of the family uncle that sometimes watched the little girl
I think he got about five years and a lifetime slot on the list

During those years I saw numerous obviously illegal guns and guns coupled with other items that would make anybody suspicious but never felt the need to report on that

 

[wooderson]

An interesting, if unwelcome, parallel here would be in the war on terror. A majority of 'terrorists' being held in Guantanamo and elsewhere were turned in by their neighbors for reward money offered by the US and new Iraq/Afghanistan govts.

Clearly abuse would be unpossible.

 

[loud-mouth shnook]

I'm only speculating, but...

...it's my guess that the NYC program was a misguided attempt to use the crackheads to rat out the gangstas. Prob'ly figured the geekers would do just about anything for the next rock, including turn in Angelfood down the hall. Imagine that, a badly thought out gun related plan in NYC, whodathunk?

 

[Oleg Volk]

Off Topic for THR...

I disagree.

 

[thexrayboy]

This topic addresses two subjects that are similar but not the same. On one side of the equation we have honest upright citizens who observe activities that lead them to believe something is awry, not right, needing further investigation. Often times these people will go out of their way, sometimes to the point of being late for work or missing an appointment to inform the necessary persons of their concerns. This is motivated by the desire for the public good. To make the world safer, better, a more pleasant place to be.

The other side of this coin is the world of informers. Stool pigeons, spys, rats, Benedict Arnolds, Quisling's, etc. etc. The list of euphemism's describing these type of persons is extensive and reflects the general disgust which society in general view these types of people. The common motivations behind the actions of these people are self interest. They squeal to the powers that be to gain something. Be it money, privilege, protection, or perhaps just to satisfy a malicious intent towards a neighbor.

Report for the public good without motivation of gain is accepted and lauded. This activity is to be praised and promoted by society both officially and unofficially. Informing, giving information to persons in power for gain of some sort is immoral, unethical, evil and to be discouraged most heartily whenever possible. When elected officials stoop to the level of advertising
rewards to entice people to rat out their neighbors and acquaintances they
are no longer operating for the public good, they are operating to increase their power and authority and should be turned out of office immediately.
With tar and feathers if appropriate.

 

[gunsmith]

You know, this presents an interesting opportunity

I'm just saying, you know what I mean?

Lets say some ultra annoying million mom fascist has a march in NY and you have a cheap old derringer you got for 25 bucks 5 years ago at a flea market?
You could drop it in her purse, and get a 1000 dollar reward for giving them a taste of their own medicine!

I'm not advocating this....I'm just saying, you know what I mean?

 

[thexrayboy]

I'm not advocating this....I'm just saying, you know what I mean?

Oh how deliciously mean.....and appropriate.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Some clarity on the role and purpose of informers is called for here, in order to have a sober discussion.

In this case, the topic is related to a) the ease of anonymous informers to cause honest men trouble, and b) the fact that guns, under normal, default circumstances, are prefectly legal for 99.95% of Americans, and yet are somehow deemed suspicious enough as to merit informants.

You'll also note the increasing prevalence of our opponents couching their goals as "illegal guns". We know damned well that the general public's view of what is and isn't illegal is...expansive.

It's pretty clear that as well intentioned (?) as these "anti-crime" initiatives might be, they certainly have a chilling effect, in a number of different ways.

Observe the thread in L&P of the guy pulled over in CA, and because he was identified as a gunowner, got "extra scrutiny" and handling that presumed upon his criminality.


Making gratuitous and unnecessary connections (and implied moral equivalence) between this situation and the Iraqi informants turning in the insurgents who are shooting up and bombing their neighborhoods contributes nothing to the discussion, and in fact leads it pointlessly astray.

Back on topic, students of history, (And remember, those of us who DO study history are forever doomed to watch everyone else repeat it), have several interesting models to choose from when it comes to an informant society. Hungary and the USSR during the Stalinist era are classic examples: armys of shadow informants were built, successfully dividing and conquering the populace. It worked mainly because the rest of the rule of law was so deeply compromised that being hauled off and disappeared for "counter revolutionary thought" was a real possibility, rather than a caricature of a joke.

 

[Fletchette]

The government is using a classic strategy: divide and conquer.

People wishing to make a quick buck can now make a phone call and do it. Is there a penalty for being wrong? No. So they call again, and again.

Violates the Constitution in so many ways...2A, no probable cause, encourages violation of privacy by fellow citizens, etc.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The government is using a classic strategy: divide and conquer.

I was going to say that. I'll add that socialism thrives on fear, distrust, racism, envy, hatred, and assorted other manifestations of evil.

 

[BHPshooter]

I submit the practice of anonymous informing is anti freedom to the core.

Violates the Constitution in so many ways...2A, no probable cause, encourages violation of privacy by fellow citizens, etc.

Agreed. Not only is it anti-freedom, it is grossly unconstitutional. Amendment VI says: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall... be confronted with the witnesses against him.

Anonymous informing is vastly incongruent with the Bill of Rights... and naturally, very few Americans care.

Wes

 

[Joey_the_Wolf]

The fact that this is happening in the United States of America makes me sick. I would expect this kind of government sponsored spying in Soviet Russia or East Germany, but not here... Pretty soon, we're all going to wake up and be afraid of our own shadow and of our neighbors... and for what? I know it sounds cliche, but Thomas Jefferson would be pissed...

 

[Insectguy]

This kind of abuse has been going on for years...

...in the homeschooling environment. Neighbors, relatives and even mail carriers have called "child protective services" anonymously because "they were educationally abusing their child."

It's a great way to get back at someone you didn't like-- the CPS shows up with a deputy, interviews the children alone, and even sometimes take the children away, only later to be found the original information was wrong. Now, they've merely expanded the program.

Kinda makes you wonder what areas will be next, huh?

On a sidebar, whenever I take my rifles out to the range, I will always have them cased, just to minimize the potential for a fleeting glimpse causing erratic reporting.

And I live in southern Georgia....

 

[Warren]

In all the time I was a delivery guy I never once called the cops on seeing drugs, guns or questionable activities in a place I delivered to.

Though I called the cops on a person five times.

In the first case a man who lived next to the address I was at was punishing his (step?) daughter by repeatedly picking her up by one arm. This was pre cell-phone so I had to wait until I got back to the store to call so by the time I did the incident may have been well over.
I never heard back from the cops. So I don't know what happened with it.

Later I did second guess myself. Maybe I misread the situation, maybe it was playful, maybe where I heard screaming was in fact high pitched laughter.


The second case was a flagman at a roadwork site who positioned himself about 10' back of a blind curve on a very wet day in a stretch of road known for accidents. So with a 55 MPH SL you come around that corner and he was RIGHT THERE. So once I got to a phone I called CHP and reported it as a road hazard. Again I second guessed myself, what if it was perfectly legal to stand there and by calling it in I'm wasting cop time and possibly dropping someone in the pot for nothing.


The third one was two kids 9-13 Y.O. no helmets, no shoes on an ATV on a very busy main street (plus freeway on and off ramps) driving like maniacs and nearly wrecking themselves and nearly running into my car. No second guess there. Again I have no idea what came of it.

And twice to get bad checks paid off. But those folks were actual theives.

So do these examples rise to level of "informant"? I'm not being snarky, I'd like to know.