informers among us

[AStone]

The last time I had a LEO deal with any of my firearms was during a routine DUI checkpoint years ago. The officers asked if they could come by and shoot it that coming weekend.

Those LEO's are clearly not good for your state.

I think you should suggest that they come out here to the left coast.

(We offer a great climate, economic opportunity and larger open spaces.)

Then you can seek more controlling officers to keep the peace in your area,
to keep those gun-toting, criminal-minded RKBA supporters in check.

It's for your own good, don't cha' see?

 

[Fletchette]

So do these examples rise to level of "informant"? I'm not being snarky, I'd like to know.

My take:

In the first case a man who lived next to the address I was at was punishing his (step?) daughter by repeatedly picking her up by one arm. This was pre cell-phone so I had to wait until I got back to the store to call so by the time I did the incident may have been well over.
I never heard back from the cops. So I don't know what happened with it.

Later I did second guess myself. Maybe I misread the situation, maybe it was playful, maybe where I heard screaming was in fact high pitched laughter.

Not spying but civic duty...provided that you were willing to testify in court as to what you saw and heard.

The second case was a flagman at a roadwork site who positioned himself about 10' back of a blind curve on a very wet day in a stretch of road known for accidents. So with a 55 MPH SL you come around that corner and he was RIGHT THERE. So once I got to a phone I called CHP and reported it as a road hazard. Again I second guessed myself, what if it was perfectly legal to stand there and by calling it in I'm wasting cop time and possibly dropping someone in the pot for nothing.

Nothing wrong with this call, you could be saving the flag man's life. Calling the police doesn't necessarily mean that you are trying to get someone in trouble.

The third one was two kids 9-13 Y.O. no helmets, no shoes on an ATV on a very busy main street (plus freeway on and off ramps) driving like maniacs and nearly wrecking themselves and nearly running into my car. No second guess there. Again I have no idea what came of it.

While thes kids might get in some trouble, I still think this was a common sense call.

I am not against all contact with the police, I am just against the idea that informants can profit by turning in their fellow citizens for non-crimes like merely owning a gun.

 

[mike101]

Getting people to inform on their neighbors. I wondered when they would get around to that. It worked for the Nazis. It worked for the Communists. It'll work for the Antis. Only here, they have to throw some money at people, but they seem to have it to throw. Absolutely disgusting. Totally un-American.

 

[beretta9]

How about if a snitch has to pay a thousand dollars if they are wrong? Bet that would stop a lot of snitchers from snitching for money.

 

[Mr White]

Or... require the informant to testify in open court and only receive the $$$ if his/her information leads to a conviction.

 

[hornadylnl]

Hasn't the American Medical Association been doing this for years? I believe I read in a Shotgun News article that the AMA was asking doctors to ask their patients how many guns, etc. they had.

 

[mrmeval]

Try and make better government officials and employees. I want to work on making less of them sure, but if even 10 percent were fully 'on our side' we'd be better off.

It's pretty hard for me to do this now. I know it has to be hard for others. I don't have kids but if I did I'd try and convince them to invest in a good school and perform some service in the political system. I'd want them to start out as high as possible in government and try and make it better. Even a little.

At one time I completely lost faith in somethng I didn't know I had and it was that my government was the best there was and I could trust it implicitly. That was destroyed and I'd prefer to fill the slots left when the old crew leaves with better people. One can hope.

I'll go clean my guns now.

 

[Erebus]

Here in the People's Republic of Taxachusetts I remember radio ads to turn in your neighbors if they were registering their cars out of state (NH primarily). Insurance and taxes are alot cheaper in NH than MA and people would maintain addresses in both states and register their vehicles in NH. I don't remember hearing any of the ads recently but they were quite common on the radio for a while.

I really fear the concept of paid informants. Especially if there are no concequences if they are wrong. What's to stop them from dropping a dime on every neighbor on the block? Eventually they will probably get one right and collect some cash. In the meantime throwing a bunch of innocent people's lives into turmoil. And that's assuming that there are no no-knocks/raids that go bad in the meantime.

I remember when I was a paperboy I used to do 90+% of my collecting on saturday or sunday. I got a contact high just about every weekend. I could have turned in at least 6 or 8 people every weekend for weed. But they were hurting no one, they never caused trouble, and were all generally nice people. I can't help but wonder if I could have been convinced to turn them in at that age if there had been one of these "rat on your neighbors" campaigns going on.

 

[ilbob]

Agreed. Not only is it anti-freedom, it is grossly unconstitutional. Amendment VI says: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall... be confronted with the witnesses against him.

That part of the constitution died a long time ago when it was decided that convenience of the government overrode our civil liberties. And when it happened, no one said boo.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

Hasn't the American Medical Association been doing this for years? I believe I read in a Shotgun News article that the AMA was asking doctors to ask their patients how many guns, etc. they had.

Yeah, I saw a doctor back about 20 years ago that told me to exercise, eat right, and not own any guns.
I told him that I would not be seeing him anymore. When he asked why, I told him that if he dispensed pseudo-medical advice from ignorance and fear, I did not trust any of the rest of his medical advice. I also told him that as a scientist, and member of a heavily medical family, he was an embarrassment to his profession and cannot call himself a scientist.
He turned and walked away. I never saw him again.

Back in the late '70s I worked as an automobile mechanic. I figure that at least 20-25% of the cars that came into our shop (an Oldsmobile dealership) had a pistol under the front seat. I never thought much about it, or actually found it funny (I had just moved down to Florida from Maryland--where you did not see this--Bethesda, not rural Maryland). Today, I find myself hesitant to take a rifle out of a case to show a neighbor, and I live in a neighborhood where almost all of the neighbors are very conservative (although only a few gunnies).
It is just as disturbing that the government wants folks to turn in people with guns, as it is that so many think that gun ownership is illegal. Certainly the way the news presents it, it would be easy to think that only law enforcement can legally own guns. When there is a story about someone arrested that have guns, they never explain why THAT person was breaking the law by owning guns, just point out that he had guns.
Like that guy recently that was arrested in Chicago (a Bears player). Wow, they made it sound like he was a some sort of out-of-control gangbanging nut case, because he had SEVERAL ASSAULT RIFLES and ABOUT 500 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION.
I saw that and told my wife, "Dude was way under armed. He could have gone through 500 rounds on a good weekend at the range!"
But it was presented like he was ready to start WWIV!

 

[jerkface11]

Personally i refuse to be ashamed of my guns. I talk about them to anyone who seems interested. If there's a reason to be outside with one i don't worry about the fuzz showing up. I've had the cops called on me ONE time while i was shooting in a friends backyard. And that was only because there was a burn ban on and someone thought we were setting off fireworks. When the cop saw we were only shooting he left.

 

[lance22]

Two Americas

This discussion reminds me of the importance of MoveOn.Org. Is there some way that we can organize a donation program to help leftists move to Canada or France?

At least in the Revolutionary War, all the people who wanted to be ruled over by a strong govement got to leave (to Canada in most cases) and I think that did the country a lot of good.

 

[Nanook]

to help leftists move

I like your thinking, but I don't think the miserable so and so's are going anywhere. They take too much enjoyment out of messing with other people's lives.

If you remember, various actors and "singers" were flapping their lips about moving when Bush was elected the first time. When last seen, they were still polluting the landscape.

But, it's a great idea.

 

[Juna]

Hasn't the American Medical Association been doing this for years?

The AMA has a lot of crappy policies, and for that reason, a lot of the smarter and more observant physicians don't support them. The mentality with the AMA is just like the socialist government mentality--that you should just trust them b/c they're the big organization who stands for all of them. Nothing could be further from the truth. In no way are firearms a medical concern.

Yeah, I saw a doctor back about 20 years ago that told me to exercise, eat right, and not own any guns. I told him that I would not be seeing him anymore.

Good decision.

Like that guy recently that was arrested in Chicago (a Bears player). Wow, they made it sound like he was a some sort of out-of-control gangbanging nut case, because he had SEVERAL ASSAULT RIFLES and ABOUT 500 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION.

I agree. I was listening to the liberal anti-gun brainwashed meat head football announcers talking about how this guy had "4 or 5 unregistered guns and 500 rounds of ammunition at home," and I was like, "SO??!??!" 500 Rounds of ANY caliber is not a lot. Hell, it could have been .22LR!! And unregistered firearms?! What part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand? We shouldn't have to register firearms... PERIOD.

 

[justashooter]

i thought this thread was about people on the net posing as gunnies in order to get close to us hoping to catch us in violation of law.

i know 3 posers on the FAL FILES who are atf agents or stooges. they have all asked for (and gotten) invitations to gun build parties at my place, and watched us screw together FALs and bend flats for AKs. in the end, each one showed their colors and was outed privately among the gun building community. some were smoother than others. probably, some are smooth enough that we don't know who they are. yet.

makes no difference. no matter how many times you ask me to help you drill the 3rd hole, i ain't gonna do it for you. i will talk with you about where it goes, but i ain't gonna do it for you.

 

[Jeff White]

Reality

Until the courts start giving a whole lot more weight to the information from an anonymous source, this won't be a problem.

In most cases an anonymous tip isn't probable cause for anything. Exceptions are for things like bomb threats.

There is a lot of case law on this. There are several threads in the achives where the cases are cited and discussed.

The danger to freedom is when the people demand their legislators write laws taking away the current 4th Amendment protections. Back in the late 80s there were several nationwide polls done where a large majority supported essentially declaring the 4th Amendment null and void for drug cases. The questions were worded to say things like: "Should the police be allowed to search suspected drug dealers without warrants?" A large number of the people polled agreed it was a good idea. Why, because they had this stereotyped image in their mind of a drug dealer being hispanic or black, wearing a lot of gold chains and shooting up the town with Mac 10s and 11s. They had no idea that if what they agreed was a good idea came to pass, their neighbor who was angry because they wouldn't remove the tree by the property line so the leaves didn't fall in their yard, could just call the police, say they were dealing drugs and cause them all kinds of problems.

Americans mind their own business for the most part. There are a few everywhere that call the police for every little thing, but we've got a way to go culturally and legally before a society where informers had a big influence on the way the general population lives is born here.

Jeff

 

[Limeyfellow]

We had the same problems in the 50s with McCarthy and his bunch of cronies using the communists to crack down on civil rights. It seems that the people who do the most harm to us are the ones who try the upmost best to protect us and blindly follow paranoia and fear to achieve these goals. They would pay people to report suspected communists.

Of course we also tried it in other countries such as Vietnam when we went out and assassinated anyone who informants we paid reported as being bad guys and it turned out people just pulled out any name out the hat or their personal enemies they had grudges with or in Iraq where we see bounty hunters and locals jump the closest guy and hand him over for the reward. Having similar programmes in the US is going to work just as well as its done everytime throughout US history they tried it.

 

[Ryder]

informers among us

I would hope gun owners don't turn each other in. That's disgusting. I believe in the 2nd and I believe in freedom. If someone shows me an illegal gun I won't be turning them in for any amount of money. But I wouldn't be touching it either, I'll keep my distance

 

[svtruth]

It is interesting

that the same people (eg Boston's Mayor Menino) who advocate letting the police be responsible for your safety turn right around and ask that you help them.
How come you should not defend yourself, but should volunteer to do what the PD is paid to do?

 

[rbernie]

Philly just announced their version of the NYC program: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=253295

And Philly was very up front with things; cash-for-tips is paid on arrest, not upon conviction. Wanna screw with a the guy down the hall and buy that new TV set all at the same time? This may be just the ticket....

 

[B.D. Turner]

If I turn in myself will they give me the money? I need a .44 magnum Ruger Blackhawk and some more ammo.

 

[Lonestar]

Ohh boy Can I join this Tin foil hat wearing, anti cop thread? When do I get my thehighroad.org " Stop Snitchin' " T-shirt.

Cops take informant info with a grain of salt. But honestly if it leads to Joe Mohammed getting arrested with 20 modified AKs in his basement that is a good thing, right?

 

[buzz_knox]

Cops take informant info with a grain of salt. But honestly if it leads to Joe Mohammed getting arrested with 20 modified AKs in his basement that is a good thing, right?

"If it only saves one life, it's worth it." Right?

I don't list what I do or do not own precisely for the reasons provided in the OP. People will turn others in or file false charges for any reason under the sun. It happens in disputes between neighbors, between spouses, and between individuals who get in a spat on the net. I've seen people go to employers to discuss their employees' use of the 'net when said employees got the best of them in a 'net argument. I have no doubt that when money and/or anti-gun influences are added, you'll see at least a few on boards containing thousands of members who will inform on us.

 

[Lonestar]

Buzz it happens all the time. Divorces, lovers spats, child cusody, can lead to informant lies. He abuses his children, she is selling drugs, they are illegals, he has an illegal firearm, its been done before for years. The cops job is to figure out what is BS and what is legit. Cops in most cities have award systems for information if crime is high, drug sales are high, and now if illegal gun possession is high.

Cops are looking to arrest criminals, they are not looking to take away your legal guns. That is the guys in the Black helicopters job .

 

[buzz_knox]

The determination of whether a firearm is legal or illegal will be made by others. The officers will follow orders, even if those orders are to take everything in and sort it out at the station, assuming it does get sorted out.