inherited 2 rifles

[flexible]

Hi Everyone; flexible here. I was just given two rifles by the last uncle on my fathers side.
* Springfield Armory M1903 #985162 cal 30-06
* Mitchell's Mauser M48 Collector Grade. cal 7.9mm 56/52
they probably aren't worth much but can these be sent to a rifle smith to be modified/upgraded for target work?
I already have a S&W M&P 5.56 and a Savage #12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor so these two new ones might wind up in storage.
any advice would be appreciated.
thanks
flexible

 

[Robert]

If I were you I'd sell them to a collector and use that money to fund a new build. If the 1903 is in original condition it can be worth a bit of money. Not a ton mind you but enough to start a new build. The M48 is worth a little less, MM is notorious for shady advertising and high prices, but to the right person it might sell well. If the 1903 has already been butchered then I'd build an old school sporter hunting rifle out of it.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Need pics of the guns to give you a better idea- an all original, unrearsenaled '03 in good condition could go for as much as a two grand. Run of the mill mixed parts guns are in the 6-900 range and sporterized rifles are all over the place depending on the quality of the conversion.

I see perfect M48s around here in the $3-400 range pretty regularly.

In either case, I would not keep either one if you aren't nostalgic about them, though both are superb examples of the gunmakers art. Sell them to a collector who will appreciate the history behind them- any of the $350 Walmart specials from Savage, T/C, or Remington will outshoot all but the best prepared old Military surplus guns right out of the box for far less money, better safety margins, less maintainance, and better scope mounting options.

 

[PapaG]

Don't go chopping on a Springfield. They are steadily rising in value.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'm with those guys^

I've done a number of sporterized rifles, it's not worth it unless u want the project, or really want the end product.
Sell both and buy another rifle if you want, or parts for what you have.

If you DO want the project, or just really want an old school hole puncher, i would also advise against cutting on any complete milsurp. There's plenty out there that have been hacked on for way less than even a 3-400 dollar milsurp will go for.

 

[Bushpilot]

Both are good rifles. Like others have said the 1903 could be of interest to collectors depending on originality and condition. If they haven't already been drilled and tapped for scopes I would recommend that you don't. If you want a scoped rifle sell them and by a sporter. The 03 especially will continue to be worth more in the future if it's unaltered. As far as accuracy potential is concerned, both have the capacity to be good shooters but the stock sights are usually the limiting factor. I've had several of both models and, although I like both, the 03 is my favorite of the two, especially if you don't reload, when taking into consideration the wide availability of 30-06 ammo. I have only shot the m48's I've owned with stock open sights and while they shot fine, roughly 2 MOA to 3 MOA. I know that my eyes and the stock sights kept me from determining they're true potential. I have a sporterized and scoped 03 that was nicely done many, many years ago by somebody who knew what they were doing, it was later drilled and taped for a scope. It still utilizes the factory barrel. It shoots extremely well, as good as most of today's sporter weight rifles. My 03A3 also shoots very well with it's stock peep sight so, assuming a reasonably good barrel, the accuracy potential is there.

According to : M1903.com and www.FineOldGuns.com

The year of manufacture for serial number 985162 is 1918.

Introduction of nickel steel started at 1275767.

Improved heat treatment started at about 800,000. Numbers below this are considered to be unsafe to fire. Some people raise the unsafe serial numbers range to below 1,000,000 because of 2 failures; numbers 946,508 and 951,718.
It's my understanding that Rock Island Arsenal manufactured 03's "un-safe" range is below 285,507 or 286,506, sources vary.

Lets see some pictures..!!!

 

[flexible]

Here are two quick photos; looks pretty decent except for what looks like initials carved into the stock.

 

[flexible]

the photos are the Springfield M1903 resting on the Mauser box.
thanks for all the help
flexible

 

[Laphroaig]

Here are two quick photos; looks pretty decent except for what looks like initials carved into the stock.

It sounds like those "initials" might be a cartouche, which are the initials of the inspector at the Springfield Armory when the rifle was made. It even makes that rifle more desirable if that is the case. If it is "JFC" (J.F. Coyle), that's what it is. He was the inspector for the serial # of your rifle.

 

[Bushpilot]

Looks pretty good and unmolested from what I can see from the pics. Nice...

 

[entropy]

If you sell the 1903, you have most of your next target rifle right there. The Mauser should be a good start towards a scope. As has been said already, please do not alter either.

 

[flexible]

Just got out the magnifying glass and the 'initials' look like: I A or LA. A. 11?

 

[entropy]

Can you post a close up of the stock cartouche?

 

[Mr. Hill]

I’d keep them and shoot them stock. Don’t modify them. Those are cool rifles.

 

[flexible]

two sets of markings

 

[flexible]

Oh, I'm guessing that the 7.9mm 56/52 ammo for the Mauser is really considered 8mm?
flexible

 

[entropy]

Yes, it sould be 7.92x57JS. Same as 8mm Mauser.

From Stammtisch on Gunboards:

To add to the confusion on AAJ, US MARTIAL AND COLLECTOR ARMS lists that cartouche as unknown, ca. 1930. Brophy lists it as 1918-20 with no further notations.

Seems it is not a common one, should help fetch a few more bucks.

 

[Bushpilot]

From www.1903.com:

AAJ on M1903 grasping groove stock?

Question - I have a 1903 finger-grooved type S 2-bolt stock, with an AAJ in a box cartouche (only) in the usual spot. A single serif P proof is on the grip. There is an "N" in the cut off recess.

Brohpy mentions boxed AAJ as being likely Springfield, circa 1918, but newer Inspector Lists available on-line have AAJ as an 'Unknown...1930 Rifles'.

Would you happen to know anything more/certain/specific information about this Inspector mark (or the "N"?)

Thanks!

Answer:

Although Brophy does list an AAJ inspector at Springfield, more up to date research seems to suggest that most of these AAJ markings come from Auusta Arsenal in the 1920s and was probably a rebuild stamp. The scripted P you mention is further evidence of this.
No idea what the N in the recess for the cutoff stands for; very few of them are identifiable.

--Rick the Librarian

Since your serial number dates to 1918 I would say that you have an original stock on your 03. The apparently original stock and the visible AAJ cartouche both contribute to the rifles collector value......

 

[CapnMac]

I need to pull Canfield out, jut that AAJ cartouche is in good shape. That's about $1500-1750 of US history that may or may not have belonged to PVT Lewis (or one of his kids). Even with the very impromptu "sling" buckle "fix." (It really ought to have a 1907 leather sling on it.) Anyone offering you a cent under $1400 cash is lo-balling you. low "high numbered" 1903s in WWI configuration are not commonplace at all. With a good cartouche, even rarer.

All it really needs is for you to beg/borrow a muzzle & throat erosion gauge. Speaking of, could you get up a picture of the muzzle crown? Originals were issued a pull-through thong for cleaning; steel rods did not get issude until about 1942--so there ought not be a lot of barracks cleaning rod damage to the crown.

Might behoove you to set about getting some M2 Ball and a day at the range. You might have rather a good "target" rifle there.

 

[flexible]

I'm attaching a photo of the muzzle crown; hope the resolution is good enough, also the number on the forend - 24. If you need better resolution i'll use my SLR and take a better photo. thanks
flexible

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

The crown looks a bit too square for an original barrel. Is there a flaming bomb stamped just aft of the front sight with some initials and a date? Also the upper handguard looks like a "low hump" which would not be original for a 1918 gun. Also need a pic of the rear sight base- is it smooth and round or beveled?
Lastly, look and see if any of the parts have mismatched coloration and if they do, check for a tiny "R" stamped into them, such as under the bolt handle. These are Remington replacement parts- good quality parts but they were replaced at the arsenal later on and would lower the value a bit.
Still- very nice Springfield and well worth keeping intact!

 

[tark]

Should be a date stamped on the barrel, top side, behind the front sight. behind a flaming bomb stamp, like NIGHTLORD40K has mentioned Would be a month-year. That crown DOES look a bit strange.

Yours is a double heat treated receiver rifle, and those were prized by the conversion gunsmiths because of their slick, smooth operation. They were very strong and safe. The nickel steel actions were often criticized for their "sticky" feel when manipulated. It is interesting to note that all 03s were proofed at the Armories at 70,000 PSI, even the early ones. We went through WWI with low numbered Springfields, for the most part.

The pics are greatly appreciated but we need more pics of the receiver, the bolt and the rear sight, especially the base. If it has a large scallop on each side it may be original to the gun. If not, it a Remington made WWII part. The bolt handle looks to be swept backward slightly, this would be incorrect , I think. I'm going from memory here. Does the bolt have an "R" anywhere on it. Or the letters N.S. stamped on the root of the bolt handle. If it has an "R" it is a Remington bolt and is not original to the gun. The NS stamp means Nickel Steel. If these things are present, the gun probably went through an arsenal rebuild. This does NOT detract from its value!! It is simply part of the rifles history. `

Just pulled out my copy of The Springfield 1903 Rifles , by William S. Brophy. The letters in a rectangle indicate a rebuild at one of the arsenals after WWI. AA is the Agusta Arsenal, but that "J" is a mystery. In the book, observed stamps are AAHI, AAL, AAHO, AAP, AAR and AAS. There is no mention of an "AAJ" And that "J" is clearly visible, it can't be anything else. However, Brophy does say, "These are the
known stamps."

1918 was a year of changes and improvements in many areas, The bolts went from a straight handle to slightly swept back. Nickel steel was introduced into manufacture. The stock went from one stock screw to two.

I'm guessing your rifle went through the rebuilding process at the Agusta Arsenal, which in no way distracts from the fact that it is worth four figures, easily.

CapnMac pretty much nailed it with his observations.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Should be a date stamped on the barrel, top side, behind the front sight. behind a flaming bomb stamp, like NIGHTLORD40K has mentioned Would be a month-year. That crown DOES look a bit strange.

Yours is a double heat treated receiver rifle, and those were prized by the conversion gunsmiths because of their slick, smooth operation. They were very strong and safe. The nickel steel actions were often criticized for their "sticky" feel when manipulated. It is interesting to note that all 03s were proofed at the Armories at 70,000 PSI, even the early ones. We went through WWI with low numbered Springfields, for the most part.

The pics are greatly appreciated but we need more pics of the receiver, the bolt and the rear sight, especially the base. If it has a large scallop on each side it may be original to the gun. If not, it a Remington made WWII part. The bolt handle looks to be swept backward slightly, this would be incorrect , I think. I'm going from memory here. Does the bolt have an "R" anywhere on it. Or the letters N.S. stamped on the root of the bolt handle. If it has an "R" it is a Remington bolt and is not original to the gun. The NS stamp means Nickel Steel. If these things are present, the gun probably went through an arsenal rebuild. This does NOT detract from its value!! It is simply part of the rifles history. `

Just pulled out my copy of The Springfield 1903 Rifles , by William S. Brophy. The letters in a rectangle indicate a rebuild at one of the arsenals after WWI. AA is the Agusta Arsenal, but that "J" is a mystery. In the book, observed stamps are AAHI, AAL, AAHO, AAP, AAR and AAS. There is no mention of an "AAJ" And that "J" is clearly visible, it can't be anything else. However, Brophy does say, "These are the
known stamps."

1918 was a year of changes and improvements in many areas, The bolts went from a straight handle to slightly swept back. Nickel steel was introduced into manufacture. The stock went from one stock screw to two.

I'm guessing your rifle went through the rebuilding process at the Agusta Arsenal, which in no way distracts from the fact that it is worth four figures, easily.

CapnMac pretty much nailed it with his observations.

Different markets, Tark, I guess.

Around here (South-Central FL), you won't get north of a grand for a Springfield unless it is 100% correct. Having period-incorrect parts will kill the hard-core collector interest and these are the folks who pay top dollar for these guns. A mixed-parts arsenal gun in this market will be seen at the gunshow regularly for $600-$900. Dupage trading often has mixed 1903s in great condition for $7-800 as well.

As you said, though, it would make for a good shooter- though probably still not as accurate as a new Savage Axis. If the OP wants a fun, historical, plinker, this is a good gun- but as a competition shooter, hunting rifle, or investment, probably not right for him.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

https://www.dupagetrading.com/product/1903-rock-island/
Here's a nearly correct Rock Island 1903 they recently sold for $650- probably would have gone a little higher, but for condition.

 

[flexible]

I'll be getting out the Canon digital SLR so I can attach better resolution photos. Also, the uncle I inherited this from is still alive and very sharp (he's just starting to give stuff away) so I'll call him for more info.
I really appreciate all the help, thanks!
flexible