Insurance for CHL holders.

[sgratra]

After reading a few threads here in Strategies and Tactics I noticed that my biggest worry isn't that I am going to be assaulted by a criminal, but that I am going to be held financially responsible for shooting the threat.

I have heard many times that if you have to draw your weapon and fire, you are looking at $10k and if it goes to trial $100k.

So, short of connecting my pistol lanyard to my attorney, I decided to look up insurance that would cover the cost of representation and trial.

Perhaps some of you that carry such policies can recommend good insurance companies. I found a company in TX that appears to have recently had the charges of "use of deadly conduct" dropped against one of their policy holders. http://www.chlpp.com/news.html

Mods: I placed this in Strategies and Tactics because I felt that I would reach a greater audience of CHL holders. If you feel it doesn't belong here please move it.

 

[Nightdiver]

Thank you for the info. I will be contacting them in the near future.

 

[Taurus 66]

After reading a few threads here in Strategies and Tactics I noticed that my biggest worry isn't that I am going to be assaulted by a criminal, but that I am going to be held financially responsible for shooting the threat.

Why would the victim of a crime need to defend him/herself in a civil suit? Just because the dirtbag died on the spot because he messed with the wrong hombre, this doesn't suddenly make the victim a criminal. A jury is likely to take your side because most criminals have very long rap sheets, whereas you have what on your record? Parking tickets? C'mon. The courts already know repeat offenders are bound to face street justice sooner or later. I wouldn't worry.

 

[SMLE]

Why would the victim of a crime need to defend him/herself in a civil suit? Just because the dirtbag died on the spot because he messed with the wrong hombre, this doesn't suddenly make the victim a criminal. A jury is likely to take your side because most criminals have very long rap sheets, whereas you have what on your record? Parking tickets? C'mon. The courts already know repeat offenders are bound to face street justice sooner or later. I wouldn't worry.

You're grossly underestimating the stupidity of juries and the chtuzpah of ambulance chasing shysters. Remember OJ? Aquitted in the criminal trial and then bent over and rammed in civil court?

My brother had to shoot a house breaker several years ago. He was not charged and the shoot was ruled to be a clear case of self defense, but the perp's family sued him in civil court. His idiot insurance company SETTLED OUT OF COURT with the orc and his clan then turned and SUED MY BROTHER to recover their costs! :banghead: He eventually won, but it cost him for years.

I would also suggest checking out Pre-Paid Legal as well. I had PPL for a while when I was driving trucks and they really helped me out a couple of times. They can also help wiht other legal issues besides those related to CCW. I really want to reactivate my membership as soon as I get a few cash flow issues worked out.

 

[Taurus 66]

You're grossly underestimating the stupidity of juries and the chtuzpah of ambulance chasing shysters. Remember OJ? Aquitted in the criminal trial and then bent over and rammed in civil court?

My brother had to shoot a house breaker several years ago. He was not charged and the shoot was ruled to be a clear case of self defense, but the perp's family sued him in civil court. His idiot insurance company SETTLED OUT OF COURT with the orc and his clan then turned and SUED MY BROTHER to recover their costs! :banghead: He eventually won, but it cost him for years.

I would also suggest checking out Pre-Paid Legal as well. I had PPL for a while when I was driving trucks and they really helped me out a couple of times. They can also help wiht other legal issues besides those related to CCW. I really want to reactivate my membership as soon as I get a few cash flow issues worked out.

#1. Did your brother kill or injure the perp? #2 didn't he have a countersuit?

You know, face to face with a BG and having to make a life threatening decision, then carrying it out on another in order to preserve one's own life and family should constitute to some degree as a life lasting psychological trauma. Where was your brother's lawyer when this went down???

Then again, perhaps it's different in your state than in mine.

 

[Seventhsword]

sgratra,

I am going to look into this company also....

 

[pcf]

Countersuits against someone that breaks into your home or attacks you are fairly pointless. What are you going to sue for? Money?

Depending on where you fall on the social ladder, you may be judgment proof, you have little to no assets that can be taken legally. Blood sucking ambulance chaser won't go after you if they can't win anything. You need to talk to a lawyer about this, what you can and cannot lose in a civil case varies by state. Too many people get (or don't get) worked up about civil cases and don't know what they have (or don't have) to lose, that's on both sides of the spectrum.

Bernie Goetz was sued for $43 million, and ultimately had to pay $24,000. (100 a month for 20 years to Cabey's lawyer). It doesn't matter that the jury awarded Cabey $43 million, Bernie was only worth $24k.

Before going on an insurance buying spree talk to a lawyer and determine what you need. I used to date a nurse, when she started working, she had Malpractice Practice insurance, something like $200 a year, seemed like a good idea. She was promptly named in two lawsuits, the hospitals lawyer told her the only reason she was named was due to the insurance coverage, and was advised to drop it.

Talk to a lawyer, shouldn't cost more than a $100 and a couple hours of your time and find out what risk your at.

 

[TexasRifleman]

While this looks nice, wouldn't a generic pre-paid legal plan get you the same thing, plus coverage for non gun related things? I don't know that's why I am asking.

I see lots of people selling and buying prepaid legal services.

Would you buy just Fire insurance or full coverage homeowners insurance?
What then if there is a tornado?

Also, this appears to only cover you to the Grand Jury. What if the Grand Jury indicts you?
It appears you are on your own after that.

Your legal expenses throughout the Grand Jury process will be covered by the CHL Protection Plan.

 

[sgratra]

Before going on an insurance buying spree talk to a lawyer and determine what you need. I used to date a nurse, when she started working, she had Malpractice Practice insurance, something like $200 a year, seemed like a good idea. She was promptly named in two lawsuits, the hospitals lawyer told her the only reason she was named was due to the insurance coverage, and was advised to drop it.

Talk to a lawyer, shouldn't cost more than a $100 and a couple hours of your time and find out what risk your at.

I think consulting with a lawyer is good advice. Anyone know any good attorneys here in TX that have dealt with this sort of thing? Please link to their site or contact info.

While this looks nice, wouldn't a generic pre-paid legal plan get you the same thing, plus coverage for non-gun related things? I don't know that's why I am asking.

The reason I thought of insurance is because for a while I was PADI certified (certified to SCUBA dive) and they offered something similar to disaster insurance for a ridiculously low price. I figured that some company had to offer the same thing for CHL.

Also, this appears to only cover you to the Grand Jury. What if the Grand Jury indicts you?
It appears you are on your own after that.

I noticed this too. I guess they figure that proper use of self-defense would result in a no bill by the grand jury. Sounds sort of risky to me. Especially given how ambiguous situations are that you might encounter w/ CHL.

I just want to reiterate that I have not used the company I listed at the top of the thread, It was the first result in a google search.

 

[Taurus 66]

Countersuits against someone that breaks into your home or attacks you are fairly pointless. What are you going to sue for? Money?

No, sue to get out of it altogether. The BG is not only an unwelcomed guest, he is a potential threat to you.

If you can get sued for shooting a BG breaking into your home, then why even have a gun? I had no idea the Texas justice system was that in favor of crooks over law abiding citizens.

 

[exoduster18]

So you shoot and kill the perp.......and this where you now get even......sue the perp's family for letting him become so dumb in the first place as to think that he could rob you........lol

 

[ball3006]

There is a bill in the Texas....

legislature addressing this issue. A castle doctrine and relief from civil lawsuits if you shoot a cretin.......the TSRA newsletter is on top of this......chris3

 

[sgratra]

No, sue to get out of it altogether.

I don't think this is a possible outcome in a civil suit. In a civil suit you can only win money. If you counter sue, you are either awarded damages or not. I am fairly positive that making the other suit "go away" is not an option as, again, they are either awarded damages or they are not. In other words, the counter suit has little or no bearing on whether or not the other suit wins.

I think...

legislature addressing this issue. A castle doctrine and relief from civil lawsuits if you shoot a cretin.......the TSRA newsletter is on top of this.

Original text of HB842 introduced in the 78th Regular Session-2003.

Packing.org has a great article on it. http://www.packing.org/community/laws_politics/listview/5582/

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I was told by my CCW course instructor ( A Huntington Beach, CA SWAT officer) that when you are in a gun fight you are actually in 2 fights:

- The first one is the gun fight itself;

- The second one is the court battle where the bad guy (or, if deceased, the bad guy's next of kin) tries to sue your pants off.


I currently carry NRA's Excess Personal Liability Insurance and Self Defense Coverage.

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/index.asp

 

[mmike87]

I don't think you're any more or less likely to get into trouble using a gun to defend yourself than anything else. Most people who are anti-gun are also just plain anti-self defense in general.

If you trip the mugger and he falls and hits his head you may get sued.

If you defend youself with deadly force - it was was because you were going to DIE. Any other outcome is fine with me, thank you very much.

I don't worry about it. There are a million reasons why you can get sued and defending your life is only one of them.

 

[pcf]

"If you look like lunch, you will be eaten"-Clint Smith

-If you are essentially judgment proof and have no assets to protect, why carry a large amount of "self defense" insurance. Being able to pull out your pockets is a defense against civil suits, if the blood sucking leach has scum bag clients, and you have no money or you're being bankrupted by defense cost, why's he going to take a case when no one will pay his bill?
-If you have assets to protect make sure you have enough coverage that the insurance company will take a vested interest in your defense.

Make sure your policy covers intentional acts. All the liability coverage in the world is useless if the insurance company can cut you off.

You should sit down with a lawyer and discuss your legal risk, what you need coverage for, legal strategy, and then talk to your insurance agent.

The NRA self defense coverage isn't bad, especially the $50k in criminal defense reimbursement. However, I don't think that $100-250k in liability for intentional acts is sufficient and that you'd be better served with a provision on your umbrella/home owner/renters' policy. $250k is bait, it's enough coverage to get you sued and get the plaintiff's lawyer(s) paid, his client might not see one cent, but I doubt the lawyer cares. And it's not enough for a settlement or cover a judgement and legal fees.

 

[sturmruger]

WOW I have been looking for something like this ever since I got my permit!! This is fantastic I don't know why more people are selling this kind of stuff.

 

[Taurus 66]

This country's sick!

So if (God forbid) an invading army (wanting to loot, rape, torture, kill) comes a invading one fine sunny day and you start plinking here, plinking there, here a kill, there a kill, everywhere a plink kill, and suddenly you have 50 bodies strewn out around you, could their families overseas now effectively file 50 lawsuits against you? Well maybe they'll get better treatment, cause afterall they're foreign BGs, not domestic.

The whole concept of *stupid* laws serving to protect your would be killer(s) and scheister insurance companies in bed with scheister lawyers is

... a little more syrup of ipecac please.

 

[ChickenHawk]

So what's your definition of 'sick' ?

...snip...one fine sunny day and you start plinking here, plinking there, here a kill, there a kill, everywhere a plink kill, and suddenly you have 50 bodies strewn out around you...snip...

Not trying to start a flame war, but this post borders on sick, Taurus!

Chickenhawk

 

[Taurus 66]

Not trying to start a flame war, but this post borders on sick, Taurus!

Chickenhawk

I completely understand ChickenHawk where you're coming from, and infact I highly value your opinion, because it means so very much to me (even though I never seen you before in my life). Actually "cherish" is a better word to replace "value".

You are right to point out my error in using the word "plink" in place of "shoot" (or "shot"). I apologize and I will use the right terminology from now on.

 

[ChickenHawk]

You are right to point out my error in using the word "plink" in place of "shoot" (or "shot"). I apologize and I will use the right terminology from now on.

OK. That's better!

CH

 

[84B20]

I checked into the NRA insurance and also checked my home owner's policy and found that the liability coverage with the home owner's policy was better. My policy is with Chubb and I'd suggest checking yours if you own a home. After talking to my agent he assured me that the liability coverage will cover attorney and court fees. If you don’t own a home go with the NRA. It doesn't provide as much coverage as Chubb's does but it's better than nothing.

 

[CraigJS]

Anyone ever check into a "blanket" liability policy? If they'd cover it I think they can be had at reasonable rates.. 1,000,000 for a couple of hundred $. Or is this just "home owners" ins.?

 

[MillCreek]

We have discussed insurance coverage issues before (do a search using the term 'insurance'). I would only point out, as I have in earlier threads, that your homeowners' policy very likely provides no criminal defense or civil liability coverage whatsoever for a self-defense shooting, due to the 'intentional act' exclusion.

There may be some specialized insurance policies that provide such coverage, and one would have to read the actual policy language to be sure. But if you think your typical homeowners' policy does give such coverage, you should ask the actual insurance company (not the agent or broker) to give you a written opinion confirming this.

Please see the earlier threads for details.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

pcf has made some valid points about deciding what assets you have that need protecting first. An insurance policy can attract negative legal attention. While there may be a few blissninny lawyers out there who will be crazy enough to sue a homeowner for a justified shoot, most of these types of lawyers are in it for the money.

A nice insurance policy may attract these types of lawyers because insurance companies often prefer to settle instead of litigate. It can sometimes be cheaper (in the short term anyway) to settle than to pay the costs of going to trial since most of the time the imprisoned felon (or his kin) doesn't have any assets that can be used to pay your court costs if you won.

Now if you have assets (a house, a nice car or boat, etc.) you should probably look into insurance in order to protect them. If you rely on your homeowner's coverage to pay your self-defense costs, make sure it covers intentional acts. Most homeowner's coverage offers protection for accidents only and your insurance company will throw you to the wolves if you shoot somebody intentionally (even if it is justified).