Insurance for CHL holders.

[84B20]

We have discussed insurance coverage issues before (do a search using the term 'insurance'). I would only point out, as I have in earlier threads, that your homeowners' policy very likely provides no criminal defense or civil liability coverage whatsoever for a self-defense shooting, due to the 'intentional act' exclusion.

Intentional act, according to my agent (I contacted the company and they insisted that the agent is responsible for all information regarding the policy) refers to an act of offense not one of defense. In other words if you instigate the attack you created an intentional act but if you are defending yourself it is not an intentional act and my homeowner policy will pay for the defense.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Intentional act, according to my agent (I contacted the company and they insisted that the agent is responsible for all information regarding the policy) refers to an act of offense not one of defense. In other words if you instigate the attack you created an intentional act but if you are defending yourself it is not an intentional act and my homeowner policy will pay for the defense.

Well, be careful with that. What the insurance company is doing is throwing your agent (and his errors and ommissions policy) under the bus for policy interpretations.

If your agent did tell you that, get it in writing and make sure his E&O policy is paid up.

If the company issuing the policy will not tell you what that statement means, I'd be wary in assuming it's covered.

Likely that one would be played out in civil court after the criminal side was settled.

 

[MillCreek]

Intentional act, according to my agent (I contacted the company and they insisted that the agent is responsible for all information regarding the policy) refers to an act of offense not one of defense. In other words if you instigate the attack you created an intentional act but if you are defending yourself it is not an intentional act and my homeowner policy will pay for the defense.

Hmm, I do insurance and liability for a living, and before I relied upon this statement, I would insist that the company underwriters give me a written opinion on coverage. There may be some states in which the case law supports this interpretation, and you may live in one of these states, but in most states, the 'intentional act' exclusion does not distinguish between offense and defense.

The primary issue, in terms of coverage is if the event was 'accidental' or not. In the myriad case law decisions in myriad states on this issue, the majority of the appellate court rulings, which establish the case law, have held that shooting someone is not an accident, and as such, there is no coverage. Many years ago, I read an insurance law review article on this very topic, and that was the gist of the article: rarely would you ever have civil liability coverage for a self-defense shooting. But case law does change, and you may be in a state in which coverage has been found under a homeowners' policy. But I would sure as heck check this out first.

PS: the previous poster is also correct on the E&O coverage by the agent. Most E&O insurers are not enthused about the agent giving coverage opinions, since coverage is determined by the insurance company, not the agent. It also goes to the issue of if the agent can 'bind' the insurance company to a particular interpretation or extension of coverage not explicitly spelled out in the written policy. Most coverage questions are pretty straight-forward, and are easily answered by the agent or broker. But for a coverage question that likely relies upon the interpretation of state case law or the state insurance code, the agent is well-advised to kick those questions up to the insurance company underwriters or general counsel.

 

[84B20]

TexasSIGman,

I'll take your advice. I guess I'll have to insist on a letter from the agent or the company if I want to be completely sure of the coverage. You can't be to thorough in this type of situation.

 

[TexasRifleman]

TexasSIGman,

I'll take your advice. I guess I'll have to insist on a letter from the agent or the company if I want to be completely sure of the coverage. You can't be to thorough in this type of situation.

My father is a long time agent and he told me something a bit different than your agent, so just get whatever anyone tells you in writing.

It could be argued by the company that you "intentionally" shot someone whether it was self defense or not.

Just be wary, get it all in writing

 

[Sir Aardvark]

I fear that my Homeowner's Insurance company would refuse to renew my policy if I let them know that I had a CCW permit.

I do not have an agent, per se, it is just that whoever answers the phone when I call is my designated helper for that issue.

I do know that if I call them, the person I speak to will NOT know the answer, and I would have to go through a couple layers of bureaucracy to find someone with the answer, if I get an answer at all, and all the time they will be asking me for my name and policy number.

So... I signed up for the NRA insurance just in case.

 

[AirForceShooter]

the best part of our new law here in Florida about "standing your ground" isn't the shooting part it's the part that says if it's a "good shoot" the perp can't sue you.

when I lived in NY I know 3 people that shot bad guys in rightful shootings. They all got sued and it cost. It cost money and time and a big part of their lives. One was divorced over it.

AFS

 

[screwman]

Well, I took the course here in Ohio acouple of weeks ago. I have yet to go apply for the simple fact of having to defend myself in any court. According to the attorny generals website you are definitly guilty 'till you prove you're innocent. That's alot of time, money, and loss of income. Maybe it's better to play dumb.

Mike

 

[dawg23]

After reading a few threads here in Strategies and Tactics I noticed that my biggest worry isn't that I am going to be assaulted by a criminal, but that I am going to be held financially responsible for shooting the threat.

I have heard many times that if you have to draw your weapon and fire, you are looking at $10k and if it goes to trial $100k.

So, short of connecting my pistol lanyard to my attorney, I decided to look up insurance that would cover the cost of representation and trial.

Perhaps some of you that carry such policies can recommend good insurance companies. I found a company in TX that appears to have recently had the charges of "use of deadly conduct" dropped against one of their policy holders. http://www.chlpp.com/news.html

You do NOT have a clear understanding of what this policy will and will not cover.

This policy ONLY covers criminal proceedings. This means grand jury proceedings, criminal trials, etc. They will hire and pay a defense attorney of their choosing to represent you in those situatiuons.

The policy WILL NOT help you in any way in connection with civil suits. If you are sued by the person you shoot, or by his survivors, this policy will not pay for an attorney, nor will it pay any monetary judgements.

I'm not saying that you do or don't need such coverage. I'm just saying be sure you understand what you are paying for.

 

[orangeninja]

After reading a few threads here in Strategies and Tactics I noticed that my biggest worry isn't that I am going to be assaulted by a criminal, but that I am going to be held financially responsible for shooting the threat.

I have heard many times that if you have to draw your weapon and fire, you are looking at $10k and if it goes to trial $100k.

So, short of connecting my pistol lanyard to my attorney, I decided to look up insurance that would cover the cost of representation and trial.

Perhaps some of you that carry such policies can recommend good insurance companies. I found a company in TX that appears to have recently had the charges of "use of deadly conduct" dropped against one of their policy holders. http://www.chlpp.com/news.html

Are these a "reimburssment" policy?

Mods: I placed this in Strategies and Tactics because I felt that I would reach a greater audience of CHL holders. If you feel it doesn't belong here please move it.

 

[patentnonsense]

Yes, civil and criminal risks are very different.

On the criminal side, I think it makes sense to have a preliminary contact with a good criminal attorney, particularly if you're in an anti-gun locale.

On the civil side, your homeowner's policy may well be good enough, but no solution is completely reliable. A special litigation-insurance policy may still have to be enforced, and no you can't necessarily trust what your agent tells you. Insurance companies litigate a lot, and they often do calculated amounts of budgeting for claims denial and litigation cost. Myself, I'd rely on homeowners (or homeowner's plus umbrella), since that already is supposed to be litigation insurance.

 

[mbt2001]

Company

Form a company and sell, transfer or otherwise divest yourself of your house and get it in the company name. Pay rent to the company that now owns your house. Everytime you need to do a property improvement, you can hire an expert and book it as a business expense... This is very cool. There are commercial programs (insurance, contruction et cetera) that are available to you that wouldn't be otherwise. When you get the yard groomed, that is a business expense, or better yet, pay yourself $100.00 per week for mowing your on lawn....

Seriously run it as a business. Conduct meetings, rent reviews et cetera. Supposing that someone tries to sue you all he can get is what is in your checking account (and if you are properly indebted maybe not even that).

That is my advice.

Edit: The rent has to be about what you are paying now. You want to try to run it as a business and endevour to "make a profit". Talk with your lawyer and your accountant. If you live in the Houston area, I have some referals that I can give.

 

[Navy87Guy]

You know, face to face with a BG and having to make a life threatening decision, then carrying it out on another in order to preserve one's own life and family should constitute to some degree as a life lasting psychological trauma. Where was your brother's lawyer when this went down???

His brother's lawyer is exactly why you need to plan for some kind of coverage! Even if you're completely in the right and it was a "good shoot", if the family of the deceased (or the perp himself if you missed) decides to sue, you'll have to put up a legal defense. Whether they have grounds or not, you can still wind up in a legal battle with significant legal fees just to get to the point where the jury laughs the case out of the courtroom. I think a lot of places these days make the plaintiffs pay legal fees for frivolous suits like that, but in the mean time you need to the resources to hold out for the common sense to kick in. Remember the case a few years back about the burglar who got stuck in the ventilation trying to break into a store....then sued the store owner for unsafe conditions? Our legal system is far from perfect and just about every state allows these kinds of suits. If you want to stand on your principals because you were right, then be prepared to spend a pretty penny from your bank account as the price.

Jim

 

[pcf]

Form a company and sell, transfer or otherwise divest yourself of your house and get it in the company name. Pay rent to the company that now owns your house. Everytime you need to do a property improvement, you can hire an expert and book it as a business expense... This is very cool. There are commercial programs (insurance, contruction et cetera) that are available to you that wouldn't be otherwise. When you get the yard groomed, that is a business expense, or better yet, pay yourself $100.00 per week for mowing your on lawn....

And in the context of getting sued this is a good thing? Your business assets are still your assets and you can still be sued for them. Moreover, in Texas, and just about every other state, your primary residence cannot be awarded as part of a judgment. No matter how much you get sued for the courts cannot take your home, your "business" is not afforded the same protection. If you have to file for bankruptcy or facing foreclosure due to court cost, there are ways to protect your home, you're going to lose your "business".

 

[IllHunter]

Trust ME?

Real property can and should be placed in a land trust to protect it from vultures. Paid for legal advice is the best info you can buy and I'm not a lawyer.