Interesting chat with a traffic cop...
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wojownik
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Was pulled over recently (headlight out). Deputy asks for DL and registration, and asks if there were any weapons in the vehicle (in a polite way, "do you have anything in the car I need to know about, firearms, flamethrowers, nuclear weapons..."
I politely said yes, and handed him my CWP, and let him know where it was. He thanked me for letting him know, and just asked that I keep my hands on the steering wheel. He ran my plates. and came back to tell me he was going to send me on my way, and get the headlight fixed asap. He thanked me for being courteous, and thanked me again for letting him know about the firearm - for both our safety.
He also gave me the heads up on a road to steer clear from, because the PD was doing some "traffic calming" that evening (so I wouldn't get pulled over again).
A little courtesy goes a long way (and that rubs both ways). YMMV ...
I politely said yes, and handed him my CWP, and let him know where it was. He thanked me for letting him know, and just asked that I keep my hands on the steering wheel. He ran my plates. and came back to tell me he was going to send me on my way, and get the headlight fixed asap. He thanked me for being courteous, and thanked me again for letting him know about the firearm - for both our safety.
He also gave me the heads up on a road to steer clear from, because the PD was doing some "traffic calming" that evening (so I wouldn't get pulled over again).
A little courtesy goes a long way (and that rubs both ways). YMMV ...
Similar experience, stopped a local sheriff in TX for going to fast. We are required and told him. He said to keep my hands on the wheel but saw a nice older couple on vacation and said have a nice day. He was a older grizzled guy and we bonded on that - maybe. Gave us a heads up on a state trooper speed check a few miles ahead.
As I said repeatedly in threads like this - I don't need an armed individual, who may have had a bad day, getting excited over a surprise gun. I am secure in myself enough not to worry about sharing as a violation. It's pragmatic. If my rights are violated when I am away from said officer, I can file complaints, etc.
Also, if in an accident (as I was awhile ago), it is possible the gun can come to light and I don't need some other idiot yelling - HE'S GOT A GUN!!
As I said repeatedly in threads like this - I don't need an armed individual, who may have had a bad day, getting excited over a surprise gun. I am secure in myself enough not to worry about sharing as a violation. It's pragmatic. If my rights are violated when I am away from said officer, I can file complaints, etc.
Also, if in an accident (as I was awhile ago), it is possible the gun can come to light and I don't need some other idiot yelling - HE'S GOT A GUN!!
Kaeto
Member
Not in the minds of quite a few police. In their minds there are cops and everyone else is a criminal or a potential criminal. And they treat the non-cops that way.
wojownik
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Just a matter of semantics, in most cases. Civilian = non uniformed. So civilian can be a reference to the general public, or can even be a reference to non-uniformed or unsworn police employees (i.e. "civilian police employees').
Just as a random aside, in my particular commute, I will potentially encounter any of over 44 different municipal, county, state and Federal police agencies. That's not a typo. Fourty-four.
Deanimator
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Uncle Nubbs
Member
I've never been stopped since I've become a CHL holder but if I do, I will certainly inform. I've been left off the hook twice in the past and both times the officer thanked me for my courtesy.
I've got huge respect for LE and the job they do so if they deal with me, I'd like it to go as smooth as possible.
Also, being let off with a warning is always a big win
I've got huge respect for LE and the job they do so if they deal with me, I'd like it to go as smooth as possible.
Also, being let off with a warning is always a big win
Whiskey11
Member
Full Definition of civilian
1
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2
a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b : outsider 1
civilian adjective
The above is from the Meriam Webster Dictionary. As an officer myself, I use the term to describe people not in law enforcement or the military. It's not derogatory or to make an "us vs them" statement, it's just a label to easier explain that there ARE differences between LEO's/.mil and the average citizen. The expectations are entirely different and thus a different title.
As for the topic of discussion, I live and work in Nebraska which is a "Shall notify" state. What do I think of it? It's nice to know, but I don't freak out about it. Knowing does avoid surprises if I have to take some action that involves a search or they are involved in a disturbance where it was part of it. Very much the "Don't make any moves towards it and we are good" vs the "Nuke from orbit, ZOMG!" for traffic stops. The vast majority of CCW permit holders are good people and unlikely to cause problems.
When have I disarmed a CCW permit holder? I had a guy one night that was unusually nervous on a traffic stop. CCW permit that was valid and a loaded Bersa under the seat. I don't know why he was as nervous as he was, but it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more nervous than even the most nervous of nervous traffic stops.... like nervous to the level where I thought he was moving drugs. It was obvious. I had him exit the car and I removed, and unloaded the gun. Also ran it. Why? Because it was making ME nervous.
On the flip side, I've stopped other CCW permit holders who didn't give me the heebee jeebee's and left it at the "Leave it alone and we'll be ok" and never had an issue.
It's always a case by case basis.
As for that "Us vs Them" Mentality, this comes entirely from working in an environment where:
a.) For whatever reason a large section of the community dislikes, distrusts, and berates the Police
b.) The administration for the department is taking no action to reach out to the community
c.) Officers feel like they have no support from anyone aside from each other
d.) Every action is nitpicked and monday morning quarterbacked to death
e.) The administration has not set a direction for the department and established policy to give supervisors tools to deal with the mentality
f.) Lack of police resources (adequate cruisers, gear, training, recognition, etc)
Becoming jaded in law enforcement isn't that common though. I've seen a few that have gotten that way, but the vast majority don't feel that way. There are times when I feel like I'm fighting the prosecutor's office though on big cases that they don't want to push full hog for. Repeat offender type stuff. I don't see any in my department being this way though. In spite of the best efforts of our police administrator (chief is too much credit), the community still overwhelmingly supports our department. People come forward with information and witnesses stay long enough to be interviewed. I don't feel like I have to write citations for every nitpicky ordinance violation to accomplish the end goal of keeping the city nice and the vast majority of people treat us with respect like we treat them with respect. I say in spite of our administrator because he is 180 degrees from the department on this... he wants us to write tickets for every jaywalking person and every yard that isn't exactly 8" or less in height. He refuses to allow the public to show their gratitude to the department by making donations or dropping off stuff at the department and he refuses to stand in front of the community when they want to recognize us. It's depressing and in a larger city, he absolutely would cause the above.
1
: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2
a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force
b : outsider 1
civilian adjective
The above is from the Meriam Webster Dictionary. As an officer myself, I use the term to describe people not in law enforcement or the military. It's not derogatory or to make an "us vs them" statement, it's just a label to easier explain that there ARE differences between LEO's/.mil and the average citizen. The expectations are entirely different and thus a different title.
As for the topic of discussion, I live and work in Nebraska which is a "Shall notify" state. What do I think of it? It's nice to know, but I don't freak out about it. Knowing does avoid surprises if I have to take some action that involves a search or they are involved in a disturbance where it was part of it. Very much the "Don't make any moves towards it and we are good" vs the "Nuke from orbit, ZOMG!" for traffic stops. The vast majority of CCW permit holders are good people and unlikely to cause problems.
When have I disarmed a CCW permit holder? I had a guy one night that was unusually nervous on a traffic stop. CCW permit that was valid and a loaded Bersa under the seat. I don't know why he was as nervous as he was, but it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more nervous than even the most nervous of nervous traffic stops.... like nervous to the level where I thought he was moving drugs. It was obvious. I had him exit the car and I removed, and unloaded the gun. Also ran it. Why? Because it was making ME nervous.
On the flip side, I've stopped other CCW permit holders who didn't give me the heebee jeebee's and left it at the "Leave it alone and we'll be ok" and never had an issue.
It's always a case by case basis.
As for that "Us vs Them" Mentality, this comes entirely from working in an environment where:
a.) For whatever reason a large section of the community dislikes, distrusts, and berates the Police
b.) The administration for the department is taking no action to reach out to the community
c.) Officers feel like they have no support from anyone aside from each other
d.) Every action is nitpicked and monday morning quarterbacked to death
e.) The administration has not set a direction for the department and established policy to give supervisors tools to deal with the mentality
f.) Lack of police resources (adequate cruisers, gear, training, recognition, etc)
Becoming jaded in law enforcement isn't that common though. I've seen a few that have gotten that way, but the vast majority don't feel that way. There are times when I feel like I'm fighting the prosecutor's office though on big cases that they don't want to push full hog for. Repeat offender type stuff. I don't see any in my department being this way though. In spite of the best efforts of our police administrator (chief is too much credit), the community still overwhelmingly supports our department. People come forward with information and witnesses stay long enough to be interviewed. I don't feel like I have to write citations for every nitpicky ordinance violation to accomplish the end goal of keeping the city nice and the vast majority of people treat us with respect like we treat them with respect. I say in spite of our administrator because he is 180 degrees from the department on this... he wants us to write tickets for every jaywalking person and every yard that isn't exactly 8" or less in height. He refuses to allow the public to show their gratitude to the department by making donations or dropping off stuff at the department and he refuses to stand in front of the community when they want to recognize us. It's depressing and in a larger city, he absolutely would cause the above.
danez71
Member
Right.
And there's never been a miscarriage of justice either!
Tons of bad arrests happen every year. Good luck getting a monetary award out of it.
Devonai
Member
I thought they bordered on state land or private property.
Deanimator
Member
If you roll over and show your belly, you lose EVERY time.
Of course if I can't destroy your finances, I'll destroy your reputation.
Either way, there WILL be a reckoning.
DaisyCutter
Member
I've found the best practice is to drive in a manner that precludes the need to be pulled over. I came to this conclusion because of traffic cameras. Those little buggers show ZERO leniency. A human cop has an infinitely higher probability of giving me a warning.
I just made 8 years as a sworn officer, 5.5 patrol and 2.5 detective.
Most of you aren't required to tell your boss if you've been pulled over, regardless of warning/ticket, like I am. For me, a pull over could result in disciplinary action at work.
I just made 8 years as a sworn officer, 5.5 patrol and 2.5 detective.
Most of you aren't required to tell your boss if you've been pulled over, regardless of warning/ticket, like I am. For me, a pull over could result in disciplinary action at work.
Kaeto
Member
In Michigan traffic cameras are illegal.
Deanimator
Member
And we have a winner.
I follow the same policy, but because I want NO contact with the police of ANY kind. I find that the best way to achieve that is to drive the speed limit... SOBER, and to the greatest degree possible, to obey the traffic laws.
Red Wind
Member
Completely agree. Following DaisyCutter's advice, I've had only one ticket since 1980. A minor speeding ticket, 10 miles over the limit, outside Athens, Ohio in 1992. And probably a million miles have been put on the clock since '80.
Of course luck does play a role.
alan
Member
Over quite a number of years, in several states, I've been stopped by the police, every instance except one was an entirely legitimate stop. I was never asked about possession or presence of firearms.
old lady new shooter
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A few years ago I received in the mail a traffic camera ticket for supposedly running a red light. However on viewing the photo it was clear that the light was green when my car was in the intersection (making a right turn). So I went to court. The officer who was there reviewing the videos with all the people said she was going to recommend the citation be dropped, which she did. So I lost a morning going to court, plus the cost of parking, but that was still a lot cheaper than the ticket would have been.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
I, too, had an interesting chat with the police one night.
I was driving back from a brother's house in the wee hours one Monday morning. I was tired after having spent time visiting and working in my brother's wood shop making a carriage for a 6 foot long carbide cannon. (You can see the youtube video of the cannon being tested in my signature below.)
Anyway, a VASP officer pulled me over on I-95 Southbound. I was tired and had drifted across the lines a couple of times.
She comes up to the car, shines a light in and asks me if I had been drinking (no) or doing any funny stuff (no). Then asked "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?"
I looked to my right, where the 6 foot long cannon barrel was laying across the fully reclined passenger seat, pointing all the way back into the backglass of my car, then looked back at her and said "Would you believe me if I said 'no'?"
Her eyes got big and she said "Is that a CANNON?"
I smiled and explained "yes and no...it's a carbide cannon I made for my kids for the fourth of July" and told her how it was made and that I was driving back to work after spending the weekend at my brother's house working on the carriage.
Anyway, we chatted a while, during which she explained why she pulled me over and ran the usual checks. Then she let me go with a warning and told me to pull over if I got tired again.
I'd have loved to have heard her tell THAT story back at the station!
I was driving back from a brother's house in the wee hours one Monday morning. I was tired after having spent time visiting and working in my brother's wood shop making a carriage for a 6 foot long carbide cannon. (You can see the youtube video of the cannon being tested in my signature below.)
Anyway, a VASP officer pulled me over on I-95 Southbound. I was tired and had drifted across the lines a couple of times.
She comes up to the car, shines a light in and asks me if I had been drinking (no) or doing any funny stuff (no). Then asked "Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?"
I looked to my right, where the 6 foot long cannon barrel was laying across the fully reclined passenger seat, pointing all the way back into the backglass of my car, then looked back at her and said "Would you believe me if I said 'no'?"
Her eyes got big and she said "Is that a CANNON?"
I smiled and explained "yes and no...it's a carbide cannon I made for my kids for the fourth of July" and told her how it was made and that I was driving back to work after spending the weekend at my brother's house working on the carriage.
Anyway, we chatted a while, during which she explained why she pulled me over and ran the usual checks. Then she let me go with a warning and told me to pull over if I got tired again.
I'd have loved to have heard her tell THAT story back at the station!
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Oh, and by the way...
With respect to the use of the word "civilian"...the typical meaning in the context used here is broadly "not in the capacity of a state/government representative with the authority of the state".
Law enforcement officers are government employees, acting as representatives of the government and empowered by the government to enforce the laws upon the people.
Some people have a much narrower definition, essentially a "military or not-military" definition. Police aren't "military"...but they aren't "civilians" in the context we speak of here.
Remember...words have many definitions and context is important.
With respect to the use of the word "civilian"...the typical meaning in the context used here is broadly "not in the capacity of a state/government representative with the authority of the state".
Law enforcement officers are government employees, acting as representatives of the government and empowered by the government to enforce the laws upon the people.
Some people have a much narrower definition, essentially a "military or not-military" definition. Police aren't "military"...but they aren't "civilians" in the context we speak of here.
Remember...words have many definitions and context is important.
CajunBass
Member
I was a store the other day. Fellow in the parking lot pointed to a county deputy with a vehicle pulled over, out on the road. "You better watch yourself. They're out in force today and stopping everybody."
I replied..."You know. If you drive the speed limit, and stop at the stop lights, I'll bet they'll leave you alone."
He didn't seem to want to talk anymore.
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