Shadow 7D
Member
Anybody ever think that maybe cops can be gun nuts too?
A pleasant run-in with my local police
- Thread starter Kentucky_Rifleman
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Kentucky_Rifleman
Member
I hear a lot of griping about the way different groups "spin" things to suit their arguments. It's often subtle, maybe even unconscious in some cases. We as 2A people may be just as guilty in some cases. Consider your re-wording of my original post:
to say :
As a sworn LEO, he was perfectly within his legal rights to ask me to produce the pistol. It was NOT within my current rights to refuse his request. As I stated earlier, he was incredibly pleasant to deal with - an example of professional courtesy.
You are more than welcome to your opinion that he shouldn't have asked at all, and many will agree with you, but let's not paint this incident as something it wasn't.
I was probably most pleasantly surprised by the fact that his request seemed more fueled by curiosity than suspicion. As I stated in the OP, he never checked the serial number or ran it through the computer.
As for the last part, when was the last time I asked an LEO to see his weapon was two weeks ago. My cousin and I had gone to the shooting range on a warm Saturday afternoon, and three state troopers were there shooting handguns. They were obviously off-duty, in jeans and KSP tee-shirts.
As we were setting up to shoot, I was pulling pistols from their carry bags, and I pulled out my Webley Mk. VI and set it on the table. One of the officers saw it and came over to ask about it. We struck up a friendly conversation and his two friends joined us. They asked to look at the Webley and my S&W 29. I gladly agreed (as I would with anyone who asked) and offered to let them fire both pistols. They took me up on my offer and all three shot both pistols.
I had asked the one who first approached us about the Sig 9mm he was carrying, and he pulled the pistol, dropped the magazine, emptied the chamber, and handed it to me with the slide locked open. I was asking how it shot, when he handed me the magazine and said "try it for yourself." Of course I did. I have shot Sigs on two other occasions, but never owned one. I liked his better than the others I've shot and told him so. He had had some work done to it, and was explaining the modifications (aftermarket barrel and polished feed ramp, etc.)
He couldn't have been a nicer guy if he tried. His buddies let me shoot the Glock 40 one of them was carrying and the other's S&W Sigma. I hadn't had the opportunity to shoot one of the Sigmas before, so I was especially excited to try it.
Long story short, two weeks ago today three police officers handed me their off-duty weapons AND let me shoot them.
KR
Doggy Daddy
Member
You might want to check post #25.
DD
Gritacular
Member
I don't think it is a big deal that the policemen examined the weapon.
Back in '06 I was driving a loud "new" mustang. I was at a stoplight in the first hour of driving it when a cop walked up to my window and knocked on it. He said something like "Nice car, I'm thinking of buying one, how do ya like it?"
I thought that was hilarious.
Back in '06 I was driving a loud "new" mustang. I was at a stoplight in the first hour of driving it when a cop walked up to my window and knocked on it. He said something like "Nice car, I'm thinking of buying one, how do ya like it?"
I thought that was hilarious.
shootistpd27
Member
I am a sworn LEO, and a gun nut. I have only had one opportunity of dealing with someone who had a ccw permit and was ludicrously dangerous. He was carrying a 12 inch 44 mag across his chest with yarn holding the butt, and the barrel in a crowded restaurant. Other than that, all ccw holders have been great. But every time I deal with or stop a ccw holder. I always tell the, "I know you have a permit and I'm not concerned about it, but I would like to see what you carry". Every time I have done this they have shown me their weapon, I usually reciprocate and show them my backups. (SAFELY) I have seen some peculiar weapons, and have bought a couple of the same brand and caliber. I then send them on their way with a warning. But to be honest, if I asked to see a weapon for the purpose of my safety and I got the whole "Its a violation of my rights to ask to see my gun", my discretion will go out the window and I will follow the letter of the law myself, and issue the citation. If one is legal and has nothing to hide, then the presentation of the legal weapon should not be an issue. Whoever refuses sounds pretty liberal to me.
Any time you are not within your rights to refuse a request, it is no longer a request, but a demand. Just because it is done politely does not mean that it is not a violation of your rights.
There was a thread recently about this very same thing. Texas Rifleman and another guy pulled out statutes and case law and clearly demonstrated that a cop needs a real reason, something they can articulate, some form of probable cause, to disarm you. That means that it is just like a search of your vehicle, they can ask, but they can't demand without probable cause. You can refuse a request, if it is made as a request.
Furthermore, on clearing the weapon, he did indeed search it. If you don't believe me, ask what would have happened, if, for some reason, you had been using the magazine of the gun to transport heroin.
I'll never understand the attitude of people who talk about the pleasant experience where the cop stomped all over their rights.
shootistpd27
Member
Puppy Daddy is entitled to his opinion, and I to mine, but I wouldnt call him names. He may consider me arrogant, but I would rather be arrogant than dead. Its a whole lot better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six.
In other words, you admit to applying the law differently to people who do not willingly give up their constitutional rights. Not illegal, perhaps, but it certainly shows where you stand on the constitution.
Oh, please. Don't even try that tripe about "if you have nothing to hide..." with us. That may be what they taught you to say at the police academy, that may work with some of the stupider elements of society, but don't assume that we are all stupid enough to buy into that. There are a million reasons for someone with nothing to hide to refuse to submit to a search, that's why it's in the constitution that we don't have to.
Liberal? Considering that the liberal crowd has long supported the erosion of our rights rather than the free exercise of them, I'd suggest you don't know what you are talking about.
shootistpd27
Member
Here is another can of worms.
1. If someone hands you a weapon, and your going to inspect it, what do you do? You clear the weapon. (All guns are loaded weapons remember!) Not a search. However if he gave the officer the gun at the REQUEST of the officer, then the heroin would be legally found.
2. I was sure that this forum was for legal gun owners and possessors. I didnt know it was to assist the rights of weapon toters who keep heroin in their magazine wells.
1. If someone hands you a weapon, and your going to inspect it, what do you do? You clear the weapon. (All guns are loaded weapons remember!) Not a search. However if he gave the officer the gun at the REQUEST of the officer, then the heroin would be legally found.
2. I was sure that this forum was for legal gun owners and possessors. I didnt know it was to assist the rights of weapon toters who keep heroin in their magazine wells.
General Geoff
Member
The law as it exists in this day & age, is impossible to follow completely, 100% of the time. Every single person on this board commits multiple felonies every day. Most of the laws being broken, just aren't enforced uniformly. Even top notch lawyers do not and cannot understand the entire United States Code, and they admit to such.
I think if 95% of the people I dealt with hate my guts, I'd consider (a) maybe it's a problem with me and not them, or (b) getting a new job.
The fact that you fear retribution from a spouse who is eligible to hold a concealed carry permit/license, spells to me that his wife was likely wrongly convicted. Law abiding folks don't just snap for petty reasons.
shootistpd27
Member
Im sure that the liberals who are griping about the erosion of rights of child molesters, drug dealers, murderers, are just as concerned with your right to illegally possess heroin and a firearm at the same time.
Shadow 7D
Member
Shootist, THR isn't know for being especially police friendly, and if you let us know what state you are in, I'm sure that some internet lawyers, licensed to practice and other wise, will be willing to drown you with statue and case law.
Point being, terry stops, as defined by the SCOTUS require two part for a pat down, articulated reason and belief that the person poises a danger to the officer. Now in many states there is also an added burden to the CCW'er in that they must surrender their weapon to a police officer when requested, but these type laws are more common in duty to inform states.
And finally many of us here on THR are of the opinion that if you want to see it, ask, like you do, don't use the law to disarm a mostly law abiding citizen.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513707&highlight=terry+stop+SCOTUS
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=514715&highlight=terry+stop+SCOTUS
Point being, terry stops, as defined by the SCOTUS require two part for a pat down, articulated reason and belief that the person poises a danger to the officer. Now in many states there is also an added burden to the CCW'er in that they must surrender their weapon to a police officer when requested, but these type laws are more common in duty to inform states.
And finally many of us here on THR are of the opinion that if you want to see it, ask, like you do, don't use the law to disarm a mostly law abiding citizen.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513707&highlight=terry+stop+SCOTUS
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=514715&highlight=terry+stop+SCOTUS
Doggy Daddy
Member
It would appear that you just did.
DD
Gritacular
Member
"Im sure that the liberals who are griping about the erosion of rights of child molesters, drug dealers, murderers, are just as concerned with your right to illegally possess heroin and a firearm at the same time. "
First they came for the child molesters and I did not care because I was not a child molester...
First they came for the child molesters and I did not care because I was not a child molester...
General Geoff
Member
This is because modern law is not especially citizen-friendly. The police, being enforcers of said law, are obviously not going to be everyone's friend.
I had contemplated getting into law enforcement, when I realized that I could not in good conscience arrest or cite someone for a victimless crime. Since that makes up the majority of law these days, I wouldn't be a very good enforcer of the law, then, would I?
Starcheck55
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blah blah blah. just because you have a permit doesn't mean you are a "good guy". You are more likely to be a one, but all it really means is that you've met the requirements of your state to carry a weapon, nothing more or less. We tend to draw too many conclusions based upon a CCW permit. Secondly, the officer has the right to ASK you to surrender your firearm, and (again depending on state) you have the right to refuse such a request.
An illegal search or seizure of a weapon is a different can of worms....but I will admit that many people will take such a request as an order, and some LEO use this to their (legal) advantage.
General Geoff
Member
Nor does having a badge.
Shadow 7D
Member
I linked two of them,
Also something for the cops to think about
Take the guy with a 2K custom 1911 carried in condition 1
add to that a completion trigger, or just make it a race gun, do you really think the guy wants you to:
fondle his very expensive piece of equipments
risk the NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE screwing with a gun that the cop doesn't know
NOW add to that
MANY COPS ARE BARELY FUNCTIONAL ON THEIR ISSUE WEAPON
let alone some strange gun that someone may be carrying.
Safety is a reason, but, they must have articulated a belief that they are in danger, unless required by state law, federal law is on the side of the CCW'er in that they tell the cop were the weapon is and keep their hands clear of it, see officer safety is preserved, and it's probably safer than the officer dicking around with a gun they don't know.
Also something for the cops to think about
Take the guy with a 2K custom 1911 carried in condition 1
add to that a completion trigger, or just make it a race gun, do you really think the guy wants you to:
fondle his very expensive piece of equipments
risk the NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE screwing with a gun that the cop doesn't know
NOW add to that
MANY COPS ARE BARELY FUNCTIONAL ON THEIR ISSUE WEAPON
let alone some strange gun that someone may be carrying.
No, read the SCOTUS decision in Terry v.
Safety is a reason, but, they must have articulated a belief that they are in danger, unless required by state law, federal law is on the side of the CCW'er in that they tell the cop were the weapon is and keep their hands clear of it, see officer safety is preserved, and it's probably safer than the officer dicking around with a gun they don't know.
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Starcheck55
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correct, but we as individuals have given "limited" powers to the government to ensure general safety (among other things) and it is within the framework of the granted power of gov't that LEOs are entrusted with their authority. Basically once you have given this away, you lose the authority to (personally) judge who you believe should have or not have this authority.
So basically a LEO can be a "good guy" or not, neither his position nor his authority is conditional upon it.
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It's not that we aren't police friendly, it's that we aren't friendly to police who make a regular habit of trampling over our rights as part of their routine.Shadow7D said:
Yes and no. They control the stop, within specific rules. They can't simply approach the vehicle with gun pointed at the car, order everyone out of the car and onto the ground, search and cuff them all. They need reasonable cause for all of that stuff.WC145 said:
They can take a firearm away, if they have reasonable cause. The simple existence of a gun does not qualify as reasonable cause. The officer needs a real reason why they don't feel safe.
SharpsDressedMan
member
In Ohio, it is part of the CCW law to surrender the gun during a traffic stop, etc, IF requested. 99.44% of the police don't want to bother with it, but some mght, and they have the right to secure the weapon during a stop/citation/detention, etc. Don't know about KY.
Starcheck55
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It all depends on the state and what a LEO is asking/requesting/ordering. Some states require you to surrender your firearm (I live in Ohio also), and other you do not have to. The wording of the LEO could be identical, but the authority behind these words vary. Same way an officer can order you out of your car and then say "i'm going to search your car unless you have any objections" and 90% of the idiots out there (not THR types) will says "okay officer". It is a lawful request (which is probably perceived as an "order" by most) that can be non compliant with and in doing so you are not breaking the law.
The point is that no state, anywhere, requires you to give up your gun on request. They may phrase it that way, but if the law mandates you turn it over, it's no longer a request but an order.
I suppose certain states might not give restrictions upon when a police officer can "request" a firearm, but I'm guessing (I know, that doesn't make for good legal doctrine) that if the law phrases it as must surrender upon request that they do in fact put restrictions on when it can be requested.
I suppose certain states might not give restrictions upon when a police officer can "request" a firearm, but I'm guessing (I know, that doesn't make for good legal doctrine) that if the law phrases it as must surrender upon request that they do in fact put restrictions on when it can be requested.
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