Interesting LEO encounter while target shooting...

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Me and friends belong to a local range which is for LEO and I've never had any trouble out of them. They usually wanna chat it up and all. I've been pulled over because i fit the description too many times. dark hair late 20's driving a dark suv. Yeah east tn ... if i had a pickup truck I'd probably be pulled over more.
 
Yeah, there's a 'reasonable' amount of time limit on detentions -- somewhere between 1-2 hours depending on the state

If the officer cannot articulate a reason other than refusal to consent he is looking at minutes not hour(s) before falling under unlawful detention.
 
Not to belabor a point but I was stopped by an Arkansas state trooper about 12 years back while driving alone in a somewhat beat up vehicle with west coast plates. He followed me for several miles, speeded up, slowed down, etc. Stopped me, said I was driving erratically. Checked my ID. Asked where I was going, I told him and I was polite, etc. He wanted to search the vehicle. I said I saw no reason for that. He said we'll wait for the sniffer dogs if I don't want him to search.

I later asked him why he was following me and why he stopped me. A lot of drugs run this high way from west to east he said.

Was the following of me and stop and search legal? He could make it that way evan if it wasn't.

Should I have protested my rights and refused to allow him to search, etc. Well I could have if I wanted to invite more problems and delay my trip some. I could have hired a lawyer and taken him to court, if I wanted to waste a lot of money and time. I made a tactical decision based on the relationship of forces at the time.

If you are shooting out in the coutry in a place folks don't normally shoot a law enforcement officer of one type or another could drop by. Be prepared for it and act rationally. Some LEOS often overstep their legal bounds, occupational hazard. There is a time and place to fight that. So pick a time and place more to your advantage than an isolated spot where it's your word versus thiers. Sometimes getting irate, asserting your legal rights and threatening with a lawyer may work, but it may also get you tazed. Your call.

tipoc
 
doesn't it seem sort of silly to search someone for weapons who is openly carrying a firearm?
 
doesn't it seem sort of silly to search someone for weapons who is openly carrying a firearm?

If there's some guarantee that they are carrying only one, it would be silly. :)

Mike
 
I had the cops show up one time while I was out shooting. There was a burn ban on and someone had called them thinking we were setting off fireworks. Once he was sure we were just shooting pistols he was satisfied.
 
FourNineFoxtrot said:
I did not get the Deputy's name, but this happened in Amador County, in Northern California. I don't believe that reporting the Deputy would accomplish anything, as this seems to be SOP for the SO. Moreover, she was professional, polite, and even friendly to a degree. I don't find fault with her performance of her duties, I find fault with, or at least am discomfited by, the duties she performed. Mostly, I was just wondering whether this is common.
I find fault with her performance, because what she did was unconstitutional. The police are not allowed to stop and question "citizens" unless they are investigating a crime or have reason to believe a crime has been comitted or is about to be committed. If it was legal to shoot where you were, then you were engaged in a lawful activity and there was nothing to provide the deputy with probably cause or even "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" (the language used by the court in the Terry decision) of a crime being committed. The deputy exceeded her authority and IMHO should be held accountable for it. A complaint may not accomplish anything, but a complaint should be filed anyway.

Pete409 said:
Jeez, what's the big deal with having a LEO check your I.D. and inquire about your shooting activities? I've gone hunting hundreds of times and occasionally a LEO (or game warden) will stop us and ask to check our license and I.D. just to see if we are legal. I see nothing wrong with that. The LEO is just doing his job. Lighten up!
The big deal is that the ID check is unconstitutional. Aside from that ... no big deal.
 
The Deputy proceeded to check us both for additional guns in our waistbands, run our I.D's, and check the registration on our guns.

I re-read the story after the last set of posts. There clearly is no 4th amendment issue here. There was no search! Read the story again.

What exactly did the deputy do?

  1. Asked the citizens to lay down their firearms, and verified that the citizens had no other firearms on them.
  2. Asked for ID, and verified it.
  3. Once the IDs and registrations had been verified, he moved on.

I think we've agreed that in almost every state, and with lots of SCOTUS support, peace offices are allowed to do #1. So there's no problem there. The deputy did not "search" the citizens or their vehicle(s).

I don't know exactly how much freedom peace officers have to check IDs - I think that also is pretty broad. I certainly have been asked for ID.

It sounds as though there were additional registrations needed for the weapons. If that's the case, then it may be like fishing/hunting licenses - I am pretty sure that if I am hunting/fishing that a peace officer can ask to look at my fishing license.

What are the registration requirements in the state where the incident occurred?

Mike

Mike
 
Sounds like pretty good police work to me. The LEO went towards the sound of gunfire, as was her duty, and checked you out in a professional and courteous manner. Would you prefer that LEOs ignored unexplained gunfire?
Of course she took precautions - wouldn't you in her place?
 
Ed Ames said:
Turn it into a court battle and you'd better race it to the supreme court because no lower court is going to side with you ... and don't count on the SC being your friend either.
But the Supreme Court has already ruled, in Terry v. Ohio. Lower courts now have to take that into consideration. In order to demand identification the LEO must have a "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. Shooting at targets in a location where shooting at targets is legal does not provide any basis for a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity, and at that point the LEO has zero basis for asking for ID.

Since I'm not conversant with CA law I don't know how Terry v. Ohio plays with regard to a state law allowing (requiring?) serial number checks of firearms, but I'd suspect that the LEO and the state law might be on unstable footing there, too.
 
Sounds like pretty good police work to me. The LEO went towards the sound of gunfire, as was her duty, and checked you out in a professional and courteous manner. Would you prefer that LEOs ignored unexplained gunfire?
Of course she took precautions - wouldn't you in her place?

I would prefer they ignore gunfire in an area where target shooting is common.

I would prefer not being treated like some kind of thug for doing something that is not illegal, and the cop knows it is not illegal.

What's reasonable about a government agent demanding identification from a citizen who is committing no crime?
 
It would be helpful if the people asserting an LEO's "right" to stop people and ask for ID knew what they were talking about. Terry v. Ohio clarified that. You can start with Wikipedia, but here are some tidbits from a site called Expert Law.

Can The Police Stop And Question People Who Are Not Under Arrest?

Yes. The police can stop a person, and ask questions, without "arresting" the person. Upon seeing suspicious activity, the police may perform what is called a "Terry Stop," and may temporarily detain people to request that they identify themselves and to question them about the suspicious activity. The scope of a "Terry Stop" is limited to investigation of the specific suspicious activity, and if the police detain people to question them about additional matters, the stop can turn into an "arrest." For their own safety, the police can perform a "weapons frisk" on the outside of a person's clothes (sometimes called "patting down the suspect") during a "Terry Stop." During this frisk, if they feel something that may be a weapon, they may remove it from the suspect for further examination. However, they are not entitled to remove items from person's pockets that do not appear to be weapons, even if they believe that the items are contraband.

...

What Is The Difference Between A "Terry Stop" And An "Arrest."

While a "Terry Stop" can be made upon "reasonable suspicion" that a person may have been engaged in criminal activity, an arrest requires "probable cause" that a suspect committed a criminal offense.
Note that this article doesn't cite the full language the court used in setting the ground rules for a Terry stop (or Terry frisk, as it is otherwise known). There must be a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. If the LEO cannot establish such a reasonable suspicion (based on clearly articulable facts, not just "a hunch"), they don't even get to the level of being allowed to perform a frisk, and they are not allowed to ask for ID. They can ask your name, but you are not required to provide any ID to substantiate what you tell them.

The following is from the Supreme Courts decision in the Hiibel v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA, HUMBOLDT COUNTY, et al.

(b) The officer’s conduct did not violate Hiibel’s Fourth Amendment rights. Ordinarily, an investigating officer is free to ask a person for identification without implicating the Amendment. INS v. Delgado, 466 U.S. 210, 216. Beginning with Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, the Court has recognized that an officer’s reasonable suspicion that a person may be involved in criminal activity permits the officer to stop the person for a brief time and take additional steps to investigate further. Although it is well established that an officer may ask a suspect to identify himself during a Terry stop, see, e.g., United States v. Hensley, 469 U.S. 221, 229, it has been an open question whether the suspect can be arrested and prosecuted for refusal to answer, see Brown, supra, at 53, n. 3. The Court is now of the view that Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. Terry, supra, at 34. The Nevada statute is consistent with Fourth Amendment prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures because it properly balances the intrusion on the individual’s interests against the promotion of legitimate government interests. See Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 654. An identity request has an immediate relation to the Terry stop’s purpose, rationale, and practical demands, and the threat of criminal sanction helps ensure that the request does not become a legal nullity. On the other hand, the statute does not alter the nature of the stop itself, changing neither its duration nor its location. Hiibel argues unpersuasively that the statute circumvents the probable-cause requirement by allowing an officer to arrest a person for being suspicious, thereby creating an impermissible risk of arbitrary police conduct. These familiar concerns underlay Kolender, Brown, and Papachristou. They are met by the requirement that a Terry stop be justified at its inception and be “reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified” the initial stop. Terry, 392 U.S., at 20. Under those principles, an officer may not arrest a suspect for failure to identify himself if the identification request is not reasonably related to the circumstances justifying the stop. Cf. Hayes v. Florida, 470 U.S. 811, 817. The request in this case was a commonsense inquiry, not an effort to obtain an arrest for failure to identify after a Terry stop yielded insufficient evidence. The stop, the request, and the State’s requirement of a response did not contravene the Fourth Amendment. Pp. 6—10.
Remember, in Hiibel there WAS a reasonable suspicion of a crime -- Hiibel was actively engaged in an altercation with a female in his pickup truck at the time he was approached by LEOs. He argued that he was not required to identify himself. He lost, but the case did clarify the rules from Terry v. Ohio. If the interaction doesn't rise to the level of a Terry stop (i.e. reasonable suspicion of a crime), the LEO has no right to ask for ID and no right to frisk.
 
You know, it occurs to me that all the legal mumbo jumbo is clouding things a little bit here. A man coupld spend his life figuring out what is technically legal.

To me, the point is that the SPIRIT of the Constitution and the INTENT of the founders is what's being violated here.

Limited government. Freedom. Liberty.
 
While a "Terry Stop" can be made upon "reasonable suspicion" that a person may have been engaged in criminal activity,
unless target shooting is illegal there, no hint of a crime being committed.
 
Ignorance of the law

It is a sad truism that at the age many of us have these incidents occur, few if any of us know our rights and perhaps that is exactly how we end up here, in this discussion.

When my 'stop' occurred I was 18, in an old quarry and the two cops were as startled by my roommate and I as we were by them as we headed over a rise with arms full of - arms.... But other than letting us know that they were just checking out the gunfire, nothing happened. On the other hand, had they secured us and then run our plates and ID's, given us a dressing down then let us go we would have been none the wiser until now at 46 as I read these notes and think back on what could have been. I have many times since encountered much more obstinate LEOs with much less justification but without the presence of firearms to muddy the waters, who still acted outside the bounds of both the law and decency. It takes all kinds join the forum and to join law enforcement...

I'm with tipoc on the side of don't take unnecessary chances. Things will right themselves in the end.
 
It would be helpful if the people asserting an LEO's "right" to stop people and ask for ID knew what they were talking about. Terry v. Ohio clarified that.

It looks as though what you cite desribes what can be done during a "Terry stop". Does that also imply that it cannot be done except during a Terry stop? (That's a question, not an argument.)


  1. Does that mean that an officer cannot ask to see ID except during a Terry stop?
  2. Does that mean that an officere cannot ask, or that you do not have to comply?

Mike
 
Appeals Court Rules That Asking For I.D. Not A Seizure
By Ryan Singel May 25, 2007 | 11:28:46 AMCategories: Identification
A police officer may ask a citizen for identification and use the information garnered from the request, even if the officer has no reasonable cause to suspect that a crime has been committed, according to a ruling from the Sixth Circuit on Thursday. Generally police officers are allowed to demand identification (or that a person identify themselves) and pat a person down if they have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has or is about to occur -- a situation known as a Terry stop. Police generally are not allowed to demand to show identification, but the court ruled that police using language such as "I would like to see some identification" are simply requesting identification, not demanding it.

In the case at hand, an officer followed a car in a neighborhood that had recently had a number of burglaries. The driver parked in an empty building's lot, then got out and made a phone call. The officer parked, walked over and asked if there was a problem. The man said he was lost and asking his girlfriend for directions and handed the cellphone to the officer to prove it. The officer then said he'd like to see the man's I.D. so he could log the encounter. The man hem and hawed, said he didn't have I.D. on him, and then told the officer a name he often went by, but which had no record of a driver's license. The officer then patted him down, asked to see what was in his pockets, found drugs and then found a loaded gun in the car.

While the lower court threw out the drugs and gun as evidence, ruling that the officer had actually seized the man by asking him for identification, the Sixth Circuit reversed (.pdf) that saying that a request from an officer for identification is just a request and a citizen should know they are free to walk away.

In practicality, that's not how citizens interact with cops and declining a cop's "request" is going to make any cop suspicious and lead them to further investigate you. But as a matter of law, if you are a citizen on the street and a cop asks you for identification, you have MORE legal protections if you say no and force them to find or make up a reason to initiate a Terry stop. Instead of showing identification or saying you don't have any or don't want to show it, simply ask "Am I free to go?" And you should never consent to any search of your person or bag or car, even if you are told you will be in more trouble if you don't.

And refusing to identify yourself when in the midst of a Terry stop can land you in jail, depending on your state's laws, according to a recent Supreme Court decision known as Hiibel. The story behind the cowboy who fought the law and lost in that case is here.

Fighting for Right Not to Show ID
Ryan Singel 02.27.04 | 2:00 AM
Dudley Hiibel, a Nevada rancher who covets his privacy, didn't want to hand over his identification to a police officer in 2000. His refusal landed him in jail and his name on the U.S. Supreme Court's docket.

At issue in the case, which will be heard March 22, is whether individuals stopped during an investigation of a possible crime must identify themselves to the police. Nevada state law says that individuals must do so if a police officer has reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or will be committed.

Hiibel's attorneys argue that in such situations, known as Terry stops, individuals already have the right to not answer questions and that requiring individuals to show identification violates the Fourth and Fifth Amendments' protections against unreasonable searches and self-incrimination.

Hiibel, 59, who lives in rural Nevada near the small town of Winnemucca, began his journey to the Supreme Court after police responded to a report of an altercation between Hiibel and his daughter in Hiibel's pickup parked on the side of the road.

Hiibel was outside the pickup when deputies arrived and asked for his identification before asking about the alleged fight. A tape of the incident shows Hiibel refused 11 requests to produce identification, after which the deputy arrested him for impeding a police officer.

Police then arrested Hiibel's daughter, Mimi, when she protested the arrest of her father. Both her charge of resisting arrest and the domestic violence charges against Hiibel were later dismissed.

He was, however, found guilty of obstructing a police officer and fined $250, but the public defenders on the case appealed the conviction to a district court and the Nevada Supreme Court.

Those courts upheld the conviction, but the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to review the case in October 2003.

In his first media interview in three years, Hiibel told Wired News he hoped "the Supreme Court will uphold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and that all Americans, not just me, have the right to privacy."

"I feel quite strongly I have a right to remain silent and I didn't commit a crime," Hiibel said. "(The deputy) demanded my papers. I exerted my rights as a free American and I was cuffed and taken to jail."

Harriet Cummings, one of three Nevada public defenders working on the case, said that while the case might seem like "no big deal," the legal issues at stake are huge.

"This goes to the very nature of what our society is going to be like," Cummings said. "We believe that exercising your right to remain silent should not be something that can cause you to be imprisoned."

"If an officer acting under suspicion that a crime has been committed comes up to a person, starts asking questions and demands identification, and if the person, as Mr. Hiibel did, declines that demand, they can be hauled off to jail," Cummings said. "And we think that is not something that should happen in a free society
 
An officer can ask you to do anything he likes, but unless the state has a Stop and Identify statute on the books, you're not obliged to give him anything. In some cases, you're required to give your name, address and business/destination.

In an incident where I was simply walking down the street and a police officer asked to see my ID, the conversation would go something like this:

LEO: May I see your driver's license, sir?

Me: Am I free to leave?

LEO: No, may I see your ID?

Me: Am I being detained?

LEO: No...

Me: Then I'm free to leave?

LEO: Have a nice day.

Of course, if there are circumstances unbeknownst to me, (e.g. I fit the description of someone who committed a crime), he may very well detain me.

In my state, there is a Stop and Identify statute which looks like this:
§ 1902. Questioning and detaining suspects.

(a) A peace officer may stop any person abroad, or in a public place, who the officer has reasonable ground to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand the person's name, address, business abroad and destination.

(b) Any person so questioned who fails to give identification or explain the person's actions to the satisfaction of the officer may be detained and further questioned and investigated.

(c) The total period of detention provided for by this section shall not exceed 2 hours. The detention is not an arrest and shall not be recorded as an arrest in any official record. At the end of the detention the person so detained shall be released or be arrested and charged with a crime. (Code 1935, § 5343-B; 48 Del. Laws, c. 304; 11 Del. C. 1953, § 1902; 56 Del. Laws, c. 152, § 1; 70 Del. Laws, c. 186, § 1.)
 
did the op mention his age? if you have a babyface you might get checked to see if you are of age. sucks when you are young and that happens if a cop did that to me i'd be tickled to death
 
In an incident where I was simply walking down the street and a police officer asked to see my ID, the conversation would go something like this:

LEO: May I see your driver's license, sir?

Me: Am I free to leave?

LEO: No, may I see your ID?

Me: Am I being detained?

LEO: No...

Me: Then I'm free to leave?

LEO: Have a nice day


how many times you tried it? how'd it work out?
if as i suspect the answer is none please try it and report back
 
So, what's BLM land? I've never even heard of that before. There's nothing like that in Indiana, is there?
My understanding has always been that if you want to target shoot here you have to either get a range membership somewhere or go someplace so far out in the boonies that even if somebody hears the shots, you'll be gone by the time anybody gets around to checking it out.

Back on subject, I'd be more offended at having my handguns registered in the first place than at having a LEO casually inquire about my shooting.
 
§ 1902. Questioning and detaining suspects.

(a) A peace officer may stop any person abroad, or in a public place, who the officer has reasonable ground to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand the person's name, address, business abroad and destination.

The courts have rarely (if ever) denied LE claims that what they did is reasonable. Reasonable is a very, very low bar.
 
agreed ilbob
and i can't imagine a court ruling that a cop checking out some fellers shooting was unreasonable. i had a break in in bar i ran i had a huge parking lot 1/4 mile to exit so i kept a scoped 30.06. when i got to place after cops called me they were running the serial numbers on the gun they found cased in my office. they generally run every gun nthey can find quite a few stolen ones that way. if i had some stolen i'd be glad to get em back. now if i was buying some that were shady i might be worried so i don't do shady deals
 
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