Interesting robbery tactic

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DesertDawg

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Two nights ago, after having some coffee and shooting the breeze with one of my buddies, he left and drove home. On the way there, he had to stop at a CVS drug store to pick up a prescription.

My friend had just shut off the engine of his truck and put his keys in his pocket when a dark skinned man (could have been black or Latino) approached the drivers side door from the rear. "Give me your money!", the man demanded. My friend pushed his hand into his pocket and pulled out a handful of coins, and held them for the suspect to see. "That's all I have!", my friend exclaimed.

The suspect saw the handful of coins, then demanded my friends wallet. "Look, that is really all that I have, and even though I'd be completely broke, you're welcome to it!", my friend responded. The suspect said something like "Are you sure that's all you have?", and "If you're lying to me.....!". My friend told him that he wallet had been lost, and the pocket change was all that he had.

The suspect shrugged his shoulders, then turned and walked away, not taking even the change! Hey, I've known my friend for 20+ years, and never knew that he was able to lie so convincingly! He had $300+ in his wallet at the time!

My friend said that he was partially to "blame" for the incident, for he had several other things on his mind when the suspect walked up to his truck. He said that, at least he had the wherewithall to NOT pull his keys out of his pocket and offer them to the suspect! My friend was still sitting in his truck, and couldn't tell if the suspect was armed or not, but noted that the suspect's left hand was held near his waistband during the entire incident.

The police said that the same suspect had hit 5 times within the hour, at various other locations. The officer got a laugh out of how my buddy had lied to the suspect.
 
My friend had just shut off the engine of his truck and put his keys in his pocket when a dark skinned man (could have been black or Latino) approached the drivers side door from the rear.

Situational Awareness would have gone a long way here.



There was no mention if the "robber" had a weapon. Did he?




My friend pushed his hand into his pocket and pulled out a handful of coins, and held them for the suspect to see. "That's all I have!", my friend exclaimed.


My situation is probably very different. In all that fumbling around to get hands in pockets, mine would have come back up with a 1911 and the story would have been different from this point on.

This isn't speculation. If he gives me time and space that is described here, I have the ability to be armed. A guy tried to pull me out of my Jeep at a redlight for "Looking at him" a few years back. Like this person, he put himself in a position to have a Glock 19 drawn on him.

When the cops came, he was arrested. I was free to go.

The suspect shrugged his shoulders, then turned and walked away, not taking even the change! Hey, I've known my friend for 20+ years, and never knew that he was able to lie so convincingly! He had $300+ in his wallet at the time!


I am not certain that "suspect" is the proper term. That is legal terminology. Unless you believe your friend to be lying, the guy is a low-life, thug and predator. And he is still out there at the end of this.

The police said that the same suspect had hit 5 times within the hour, at various other locations. The officer got a laugh out of how my buddy had lied to the suspect.

Five times in the last hour? It doesn't sound like it would be hard to find this guy. That is where it fails to be funny to me.



I am glad your friend is safe and that it worked out OK.

I just get annoyed with this stuff.


-- John
 
My reply? "I'd have to borrow money from *you* before you could rob me. If it cost a nickle to defecate, I couldn't afford to fart."

Biker
 
Heh.

Kind of off topic, but a couple months ago we had a woman here in town try to rob a credit union armed with a WalMart sack.

"Give me your money!"

"NO!" :D

She left and was arrested outside. ;)
 
it's amazing what happens

when a victim doesn't act like a sheep. I've known a few people that evaded robberies simply by making a scene. One woman was leaving a pizza joint in south sac, the would be robber came up and grabbed the womans purse. the woman in return, grabbed the purse and yanked so hard the 'robber' fell on the ground. She started screaming and the robber was so startled, he got up and ran off like his tail was on fire.

I think if 90% of the people would actually do something when approached by a criminal, the criminals wouldn't be near as successful. Unfortunately, 90% of people feel that the police will rescue them, so they 'just give the criminal what they want'......

In my mind, I'd have drawn on the robber. But on the other hand, if I didn't have a weapon, your friends tactic works very well. No one got robbed, no one got hurt.
 
Not an unusual tactic at all.

Parking lots are dangerous places, especially after dark. Be aware of what's there BEFORE you park as well as after. Live in white and you'll eventually pay the price...

lpl/nc
 
Larry, and anyone else who might know, is it a crime to ask people for their money if you don't menace them? If so, what is the crime?

Those are real questions, and the reason why they occur to me is that neither your story or the original poster's mentions that there were any threats or weapons involved.

I suppose that it's some kind of offense to approach a stranger or a business and request money in places where panhandling is prohibited. But in other places what's the crime? And is there a distinction between demands for money by people wearing signs that identify a cause and jiggling little white cans and demands made by people without signs and holding empty sacks?

Just curious. I also have a couple of relatives who say from time to time "I'm broke. How about giving me what you have in your wallet." These stories give me ideas. :)
 
The difference is in requesting and demanding money. Asking for money from a total stranger is one thing- demanding it is altogether different. Intimidation is usually sufficient to define robbery, use of force or the threat of force is generally not necessary for robbery to take place- though definitions differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

See below for more...

lpl/nc
======================

http://www.answers.com/topic/robbery
Law Encyclopedia

This entry contains information applicable to United States law only.

Robbery
The taking of money or goods in the possession of another, from his or her person or immediate presence, by force or intimidation.

Robbery is a crime of theft and can be classified as larceny by force or by threat of force. The elements of the crime of robbery include the use of force or intimidation and all the elements of the crime of larceny. The penalty for robbery is always more severe than for larceny.

The general elements of robbery are the taking of personal property or money from the person or presence of another, the use of actual or constructive force, the lack of consent on the part of the victim, and the intent to steal on the part of the offender. Neither deliberation nor premeditation is necessary, nor is an express demand for the property.

Robbery requires a taking of property from the person or presence of the victim. This means that the taking must be from the victim's possession, whether actual or constructive. Property is on the victim's person if it is in his hand, in the pocket of the clothing he wears, or otherwise attached to his body or clothing. The phrase "from the presence" or "in the presence" has been construed to mean proximity or control rather than within eyesight of the victim. For example, a robber takes property from the victim's presence if the robber locks the victim in one room and then takes the valuable from another room. There is sufficient proximity even though the victim cannot see through the walls into the room where the valuables are stored.

The property taken must be close enough to the victim and sufficiently under his control that had the robber not used violence or intimidation, the victim could have prevented the taking. As an example, if a robber uses force to immobilize a property owner at one place while an accomplice takes the owner's property from a place several miles away, the distance between the owner and the owner's property is such that the owner could not have prevented the taking even if he had been free to try to interfere.

A robbery must also include a taking or asportation, a carrying away by which the goods are taken from the victim's possession and transferred to the possession of the robber. The crime is complete when the robber acquires possession of the property, even for a short time. The robber does not have to transport the property away from the physical presence of the person who has lawful possession of it, or even escape with it. The slightest change of location is sufficient to establish asportation. Once the robber takes possession of the property, the offense is complete, even if the robber later abandons the property.

The personal property that is taken must have some value, but the amount of its value is immaterial. The crime of robbery can be committed even if the property taken is of slight value. Actual monetary value is not essential as long as it appears that the property had some value to the person robbed.

The property does not have to be taken from the owner or holder of legal title. The robber may rob someone who has possession or custody of property, though that person is not the owner of it. The person from whom the property was taken must have exerted control over it.

The taking must be accomplished either by force or by intimidation. This element is the essence and distinguishing characteristic of the offense. Taking by force without intimidation is robbery. Taking by intimidation without the use of actual force is also robbery. Force and intimidation are alternate requirements, and either is sufficient without the other.

The force must be sufficient to effect the transfer of the property from the victim to the robber. It must amount to actual personal violence. The line between robbery and larceny from the person is not always easy to draw. For example, when a thief snatches a purse from the owner's grasp so suddenly that the owner cannot offer any resistance to the taking, the force involved is not sufficient to constitute robbery. Hence that crime would be larceny. If a struggle for the purse ensues before the thief can gain possession of it, however, there is enough force to make the taking robbery. The same is true of pickpocketing. If the victim is unaware of the taking, no robbery has occurred and the crime is larceny. But if the victim catches the pickpocket in the act and struggles unsuccessfully to keep possession, the pickpocket's crime becomes robbery.

The particular degree of force becomes important only when considered in connection with the grade of the offense or the punishment to be imposed. Evidence establishing a personal injury or a blow, or force sufficient to overcome any resistance the victim was capable of offering, is not required.

A robber may also render the victim helpless by more subtle means. Constructive force includes demonstrations of force, menace, and other means that prevent a victim from exercising free will or resisting the taking of property. Administering intoxicating liquors or drugs in order to produce a state of unconsciousness or stupefaction is using force for purposes of robbery. Constructive force will support a robbery charge.

Intimidation means putting in fear. The accused must intentionally cause the fear and induce a reasonable apprehension of danger, but not necessarily a great terror, panic, or hysteria in the victim. The fear must be strong enough to overcome the victim's resistance and cause the victim to part with the property. The victim who is not fearful of harm from the robber so long as she does what the robber says, but who expects harm if she refuses, is nevertheless "put in fear" for the purposes of robbery.

Putting the victim in fear of bodily injury is sufficient. The fear can be aroused by words or gestures, such as threatening the victim with a weapon. The threat of immediate bodily injury or death does not have to be directed at the owner of the property. It may be made to a member of the owner's family, other relatives, or even someone in the owner's company.

The force or intimidation must either precede or be contemporaneous with the taking to constitute a robbery. Violence or intimidation after the taking is not robbery. If, however, the force occurs so soon after the taking that it forms part of the same transaction, the violence is legally concurrent with the taking. Force or intimidation employed after the taking and merely as a means of escape is not a sufficient basis for a robbery charge.

Unless a statute provides otherwise, a robbery cannot be committed without criminal intent. The robber must have a specific intent to rob the owner of the property. The element of force or intimidation is not a substitute for the intent to steal.

The offender's intent must be determined from her words and actions. A person who forcibly takes property by mistake or merely as a joke, without an intent to deprive the owner of the property permanently, is not guilty of robbery. The intent to steal must be present at the time the property is taken, but premeditation is not part of the criminal intent necessary for the commission of robbery.

Most robbery statutes distinguish between simple robbery and aggravated robbery. The most common aggravating factors are that the robber was armed with a deadly weapon or represented that she had a gun, that the robber actually inflicted serious bodily injury, or that the robber had an accomplice.
 
Locally, last week.

Man walked up behind clerk at calendar kiosk at mall:"Give me your money." "I can't open the register without a sale." "Is the money worth a bullet?" She gave him about $200. Turns out same BG hit the American Eagle(?) a few minutes earlier, was refused and left empty-handed.

Col Jeff Cooper: "The solution to armed robbery is a dead robber, on the scene."

Stay safe, and armed.

Bob
 
Yet at the same time people are killed even when they really do not have anything or the excuse is valid.

Take this case http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cca_1172990916

Guy asks for the money, he opens the register and there is almost no cash.
The guy dies because the suspect gets pissed and kills him because the cash register is empty.
Now maybe they have a policy where every so often they remove the cash and put it eslewhere. Maybe so many people pay with credit cards now and it was a slow night and he didn't have anything.

Irregardless he complied with instructions, but had no money.
Had he really had money and faked not having money the same result would have occured.
Had there been money and the suspect got it, the suspect may not have killed him, but then he could have anyways.

So I think solution number one is to be able to fight back. Everything else pales in comparison.
If your principles are what is most important, and you are willing to risk whatever to follow them, I applaud you and might do the same myself just not in that way. However know that is what your choice is by pretending to not have anything.

Even when you really don't have anything they will be used to or expecting that lie and not often believe you, choosing to rough you up or even shoot you to see if you change your mind or just because they are angry and impulsive about commiting a serious crime and getting nothing for it.

So I would not call it a "tactic".
I am not advocating rolling over or giving into criminals either. Yet know the decision you are making, don't fool yourself by thinking it is a passive way out of the situation.

In fact if the guy was driving and he should have ID? If he has no wallet that ID would be somewhere right, and don't most people keep ID in thier wallet? The criminal might buy it, but most likely that particular one was just bluffing, and a criminal that was not would have attacked him. He also paid for something in the store. So he should have both money and ID. Yet he pretended to have nothing. So one would have to be a pretty slow criminal, or just bluffing to imagine your friend had exact change for what he purchased, no more and no less, and no ID, and no credit card, which is also usualy stored in a wallet.
So I guess he was just floating around getting free items illegaly driving without a license?
 
Lee Lapin, many thanks for that article. What I missed seeing in the anecdotes I saw was explicit mention of intimidation or force, so I wondered. No doubt they were implicit. Thanks again.
 
Parking lots are dangerous.
My concerns have always been entering and exiting a structure (business or home) and the vehicle having to be parked, or leaving where parked.

I have evaded and dealt with my share of all this.

Folk mill around and wait for folks to park. Handicapped parking is especially watched as are these new "Expectant Mom" designated parking slots.

My mom has a hang tag, I insisted. Bad enough the BGs mill around, wait for a vehicle to head toward a Handicapped - advertising with a Handicapped license place driving all around town is worse.
Easier to target victims at intersection and do a "bump and run" - or other ploys.

Mom.
We use her hang tag when we take my truck.
Still, for learning how the BGs target folks, I have NOT used the hang tag, and instead parked only 1, or 2 spaces over from handicapped and less times has someone "looked our way" or "started heading our way".
Me stepping out, has, no doubt, had folks stop, turn around when we did park in handicapped.

Ploys.
Too many to name.
Real Popular is a young lady in a HS uniform with some story from boyfriend woes to car trouble and gaining confidence, and being cute, distracting to younger guys, or being in "woe" distracting older folks.
The other youths come in fast and hard.
Get wallets, purses, cars...

BGs mill around banks or businesses with bank branch or ATM.
Cell Phones, and call each other and "Fella in blue shirt, jeans, tennis shoes, yeah the guy in front of me...just got $100 in cash..."
Others in this gang, pick up this fella that used bank/ATM and catch on Parking lot.

Some will get a parking place behind where Handicap Parking is.
Wait for one of these back out, back out themselves and "light fender bender".
From here it can play out from others snagging a purse left on seat (accident and getting out to look) to the exchange of information, and knowing where handicapped live.
Hey, some older folks are concerned about losing the privilege to drive.

Not calling cops, or traffic cop, and not having this fender bender "on record" , might keep family /insurance co., from insisting they give up driving...
If family does not know...leads to being
Vulnerable to settling in private, and instead become a victim at home.

Parking lots are dangerous.
It is tough for me, to take mom out and about to appointments and such.
 
there's been a string of armed drugstore robberies around me lately. All happen early in the morning which unfortunately is when I go to places like CVS and Walgreens.

I'm super watchful now in the parking lots, and upgraded myself from carrying my Smith 642 to going back to my Glock 23 until things die down a little bit. It sucks that I'm an insomniac and do so much during the same hours that criminals are most active.

I will agree with the above posts that situational awareness is so important. If I notice something isn't right, I'm immediately 10 steps ahead making sure I know what my options are if something happens. Things like looking for places to run, seeing if there is a cop anywhere around or at least other people, and positioning myself with my strong side slightly turned away from whomever it is I'm nervous about.
 
There's a woman I used to work with -- she's probably around 60. Someone tried to carjack her and she told the guy that she didn't believe that he had a gun on him, and she wasn't going to give up her car. The guy left and carjacked someone else.
 
Tecumseh wrote:

Why did you mention that the robber may have been black or latino? Does this have anything to do with the substance of the story?

You have a valid point-- and you've made this point several times.

However, it could be argued that there would be a reason to notice.

According to the statistics,

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_43.html



FBI OVERVIEW:
In 2005, 69.8 percent of all persons arrested in the United States were white and 27.8 percent were black. The remainder of persons arrested were American Indian or Alaskan Native (1.3 percent) and Asian or Pacific Islander (1.0 percent).
Sixty-one percent of all adults arrested for violent crime were white, and 69.4 percent of adults arrested for property crime were white.
White adults were arrested most often for driving under the influence, registering 852,211 arrests for that offense.
Black adults were most often arrested for drug abuse violations, registering 410,299 arrests for that offense. The number of juveniles arrested for violent crime was almost equally divided between black juveniles (49.8 percent) and white juveniles (48.2 percent).
White juveniles accounted for the majority of juveniles arrested for property crime (67.2 percent).
White juveniles were arrested for larceny-theft more often than for any offense with 149,754 arrests. Black juveniles were arrested most often for other (simple) assaults with 71,486 arrests.
In 2005, 76.2 percent of all persons arrested were male, 82.1 percent of persons arrested for violent crime were male, and 68.0 percent of persons arrested for property crime were male.
Black juveniles comprised 49.8 percent of all juveniles arrested in 2005 for violent crime.



Factoring in census data, you find

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/dp1/2kh00.pdf

CENSUS FIGURES YEAR 2000:

281,421,096 TOTAL.
Whites 75.1%, 211,460,626
Blacks 12.3% or 34,658, 190

What you see is a disproportionate amount of crime occuring when population size is factored in.


I am not making a justification for profiling. I dislike it. It discounts the VAST number of law-abiding and decent persons of the group(s) in question.

However, I am offering this as an explaination of why one may well find that this is a material aspect to situational awareness.


Am I saying that one would be prudent to jump to Code Red if a minority walked by based upon FBI crime statistics? Of course not. Our Creator gave us brains and expects us to use common sense.


What I AM doing is illustrating that when someone mentions demographic characteristics, they aren't just pulling them out of thier hat. What people see and read plays into their psyche and into thier situational awareness.



Many policiticans and community leaders routinely state that there have been crime issues in certain demographic groups. When they are seeking money to correct these issues, no one seems to criticize them for pointing out the issue. But if one factors those same words into their awareness, they could insinuated as being racist.


That is no more right than profiling the vast number of decent persons of a minority based upon the acts of a few persons.


If I were a minority, I would be far more concerned that they WERE my minority than the fact that someone mentioned that fact.


We have a lot of problems in this country. We have a lot of problems that can be "fixed" or at least improved-- but only if we take a really good and hard look at ourselves and work with clarity of the situation.

I do believe that some communities have a greater crime problem than others. In my own personal opinion, it is a function of economics, location, and counter-culture -- not one of race.


And I leave this with one thing... When my home was broken into last December, it wasn't a Black Person or a Latino Person. It was a few White Persons -- that were affiliated (according to the Sheriff) with a White Supremicist Group no less. Go Figure.





Of course, this line of discussion is not appropriate for THR content. I posted this in order to provide the answer to the question that is routinely asked here when demographic information is given.



-- John
 
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the reason he mentioned the guy was black or latino was because the guy was black or latino. sorry if the facts hurt your feelings.
 
This very story gives me a little bit of peace of mind knowing that I can draw my gun or pull my wallet and no one can tell the difference until its too late. However, if I was staring down a barrel myself, I'd pull the wallet and drop it all nervous like, which wouldn't be a stretch in that scenario. Then I'd draw my gun and fight.

Unless I see a weapon readied, I'd draw my gun or tell the guy to get lost. I'm not a small fellow, which keeps most of these people away from me in the first place. This is something I am quite thankful for.

BTW, this is not a race issue, the man who demanded the money with an attempt at intimidation was indeed a minority. It's a fact of the event, not a discrimination.
 
i'm not offended and don't mean to offend but was he black or latino? Really your friend had a conversation with him and couldn't tell? Instead of going to cvs he needs to go to lenscrafters/
 
Interesting robbery tactic?

Let's see...
Time frame: night
Location: parking lot
Timing: just after victim closes car door and puts away keys
Action: Suspect approaches unaware victim by surprise, demands money, acts like he has a weapon, but no weapon is ever shown.

Okay, help me out. What is so interesting? This sounds painfully normal.
 
I love that description of robbery. It's interesting how they can interpret constructive possession, isn't it? I have a friend who got convicted of (among other things) grand theft auto. His appeal (he didn't contest his conviction - I think he plead guilty to a bargain) was on the sentencing for grand theft. They argued that since he and his friends had tied up the owners, took the keys, and then took the vehicle from the driveway, the vehicle was not taken from the presence of the owners. (Taking from the presence of the owners was apparently one of the elements of grand theft auto, otherwise it would have been just "theft auto" or something silly)

The court disagreed, saying that while the auto was not taken from their presence, the keys were and, if the owners had not been tied up, they would reasonably have been able to be under control of the vehicle. (It's almost a shame - they would have taken 1.5 years off his sentence. Then again, as he's in for 14 years for stealing guns from an FFL......)

On topic, I've never had to deal with this, and hope I didn't. Until I get my CCW (Should be 16 days now) I try to "war-game" ask myself what I would do. If no weapon is visible, driving off is probably an option. I usually carry a knife, so maybe I could say "my wallet is in my jacket, in the trunk"....or like an above poster said, fumble with my wallet, drop it, and come up armed. Who knows. Glad it worked out for your friend.
 
Old22LR: Some guy with my company was held up inside a 7 11 store by a guy who held a very large handgun to his head. He seemed to have remembered few details.

Another guy who retired a few years ago at my company said that he was at a red light near downtown (by the hospitals) many years ago and a "dude" ;) walked towards him from a front angle and asked him something, or for something, such as money.

Luckily, Danny looked in his rear view mirror and noticed the "main man" trying to sneak up on his car. He said that when he lifted his pistol up in the air, both gentlemen decided to walk away.

Considering that it was dark outside, he had a very good instinct to check his mirrors. Not bad for a former country boy.

They were rude to leave so abruptly with hardly a word...

If many more women (any women...), not just men in this area carried legally concealed handguns/pistols, more criminals would get shot and fewer robberies etc would happen. What a sunny New Day that would be. :)
 
Since my original post got so much attention, I'll throw in some specific details.

My friend is of Japanese ancestry. He has poor vision, but wears corrective lenses.

I didn't throw in the "black or Latino" for any purpose other than to explain what my friend said. Had the "suspect" (or thug, or whatever you want to call the bad guy) been white or of Asian descent, I would have mentioned it as well.

The "suspect" did NOT merely request money, and I cleaned up the "suspects" usage of words when he DEMANDED money from my friend (Along the lines of, "Give me your money, mother f-er!")

What I thought was "interesting" about the incident was the convincing "ruse" that my friend used, and got away with!

My friend is an avid shooter, and IF he was able to obtain a CCW permit, he would get one. By the way, my friend mentioned that the positioning of the "suspect" would have made it next-to-impossible to do anything, other than to comply with his demands. Add to that, my friend said that he "perceived" that the "suspect" knew exactly what he was doing, and never sounded nervous, but somewhat impatient. The "suspect" used words that made my friend "perceive" that he was possibly armed, but no weapon was actually seen....just an obvious movement of one of the "suspects" hands to his waistand.

Bottom line: I'm a retired LEO, and was amazed as my friend told me about that incident. I have seen many victims shot to death during robberies. One robbery/homicide that I investigated, according to a witness, was caused by the victim sneezing! My overall "take" of what happened to my friend was that he was fortunate for having done "something" in a very convincing manner, and lived to tell about it. It sounded like he was relatively calm during the incident, which may have had an effect on the "suspect".
 
What I thought was "interesting" about the incident was the convincing "ruse" that my friend used, and got away with!

Okay, so it wasn't an interesting robbery tactic, but an interesting defense tactic...but it wasn't a defense tactic that was interesting as all the guy did was lie and claim he didn't have any more money. Instead, it was interesting that the lie was believed by the robber.

Wow, that is a lot of misdirection written by a guy who used to be a cop and who would write up robbery reports and such.
 
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