Is he going for wallet or gun?

[Peakbagger46]

I was on patrol yesterday morning in a rough area when I noticed a man walking alongside a towtruck and yelling at the driver. The tow truck driver sped off and I went to contact the man on foot.

As I drove behind the man, who was dressed in "gang-banger" garb, he walked agressively away from me and then suddenly stopped and turned to face me. Man then agressively puts his right hand behind his back and is trying to retrive an object from either the waistband or a pocket. My reaction was to draw from my seated position and cover him with my glock pointed through the windshield as I exited my car.

Getting out of my car, I yelled, "let me see your hands!" The man complied, producing a wallet in the hand he had behind his back.

I had to call for an ambulance shortly after as when the guy realized he almost got shot, he doubled over and went to the ground, complaining he had heart problems. He was not admitted to a hospital.

Learning points/observations:

-Training works. I have trained "speed drawing" from inside my car, covering the suspect through the windshield with my gun. This reaction came naturally for me during this incident. I believe this is the first time I had to draw that quickly from a vehicle in real life.

-I did not see my sights. I was so focused on the threat of what was in his hands, I did not even look toward my front sight. Had the wallet been a gun, I would have been point shooting, at least for the first few rounds, the BG approximately 5 yards away.

Just thought I would throw this experince out there for others to maybe profit from.

 

[dev_null]

Good thing your training kicked in, and even better your mind didn't shut down.

That's why when I'm stopped I always ask before retrieving my wallet, and I do it slowly and deliberately.

 

[2RCO]

dressed in "gang-banger" garb

Peakbagger -- This could open you up to a discussion about profiling. Although I know what you are talking about as does anyone who has ever lived in a major city the guy could have dressed that way and not been a criminal as you obviously found out.

I just don't want to see you or your department getting sued because you posted something on THR.

Man then agressively puts his right hand behind his back and is trying to retrive an object

Not the brightest thing to do in front of a police officer who is attempting to stop you. Your actions seem justified just CYA.

 

[tkopp]

Profiling is natural. It's applying a schema to quickly assess a situation, and as such is intrinsic and favorable to cognition. A person who doesn't apply past experience to their current situation is generally regarded as naive, dimwitted, or even possessing a learning disorder.

Racial profiling, while equally intrinsic in the human experience, is generally a poor indicator. Skin color and race lack a causal relationship and often a general relationship with behavior.

Profiling based on clothing shouldn't be so stigmatized. This is one of the fairest possible schemas to use, as the individual being assessed has chosen for himself the general category in which he will be judged. He can decide to self-identify with any number of schemas by careful costuming.

For example, one can view a man standing in a police uniform and correctly assess, based on the schema and heuristics involved with 'police officer,' "If I point a gun at this man I am likely to get shot." Is that always true? No, but it's a reasonable conclusion to draw based on past experiences and can be generally applied to the 'class' of 'police officer.' This thought response is quick and usually accurate; one does not need to know that the officer is named Mike, has a wife and two children, and will do whatever it takes to go home to them. One doesn't need to know the actor in that class very well to perform a reasonable assessment of behavior. This is a schema in action.

Similarly, if a young man dresses himself in the uniform of a 'gang-banger,' he should not be offended when he is addressed with the schemas associated with that stereotype. Schemas are all one has to go on in a fast-moving social setting. This is how humans understand their world.

 

[rainbowbob]

Profiling based on clothing shouldn't be so stigmatized. This is one of the fairest possible schemas to use, as the individual being assessed has chosen for himself the general category in which he will be judged. He can decide to self-identify with any number of schemas by careful costuming.

Well put.

Race is not indicative of behavior. But we all choose when we dress ourselves how we want to be viewed and identified by the rest of the world.

I realize "gang-banger garb" may just be a fashion statement for many young people - but to believe it is not a relevant indicator of associations and potential behavior is certainly naive.

I'm just glad they "advertise".

When I was young man, I had very long hair, bell-bottomed jeans, and hand embroidered flowers on my shirts.

Many people assumed I smoked pot, was against the then-current war, and practiced "free love".

I was offended that I would be "judged" by others based on my appearance.

I was very naive.

I chose that appearance precisely because, at that time, I identified with what that appearance signified.

I'll let you decide for yourself if other's judgement of me was inappropriate profiling or simply common sense.

 

[CTGunner]

Peakbagger46 - A few queestions.

Were you wearing a seatbelt?
If so how much did it slow you down.
If not how much would the belt have interfered with your draw?
Any advice on how to practice the technique correctly?

 

[Peakbagger46]

CTGunner,
No, I make it a practice to remove my seatbelt prior to making a traffic stop, pedistrian contact, or even pulling up to a call. A seatbelt will not slow my draw down, but being stuck in my car is NOT where I want to be if things go bad.
To draw in a vehicle, I simply put the hood down on my level II holster, draw it straight up and away from my body, and begin pointing it at the threat, gun being above the stearing wheel. I do this while at the same time opening up the door with my left hand.
I would have no qualms about putting a couple of rounds through my own windshield while on the way the H** out of my car!

2RCO- I should have clarifed a bit more here. I was not profiling the (white) male, I was putting a bunch of differing factors together in my mind to make an intelligent decision about the threat level he could possibly pose: location(bad neighborhood), his beligerant actions to the truck driver, his physical demenor and angry body language, and, yes, his clothing. Putting all of these elements together does not constitute "profiling" in either the moral or legal sense.

 

[Wildfire]

Your training paid off.

Hey There:
I would not be so fast to jump on the profiling wagon....
I drive truck cross country and PROFILE anyone that approaches me or my truck..

As with COPs , the danger level is already there ... Trucks are Hijacked every day.. COPs have a job to do and better be Profiling..........

If you were to be put in a "different environment" , You would be Profiling too.

Many on here are Good Ol boys from the woods. They do not face these issues on a daily or hourly basis... Some DO.... That in it self totally changes the situation..
He did the right thing and so did the tow truck driver.. By the way , Thank You for being there....
It may be littel known , But Millions of pounds of drugs come over our boarders , BY truck. Because of certian agreements with Mexico , there is very little that can be done..
FYI , If you are stopped in the US and drive a truck and can not speak english , You will be arrested and your truck impounded. It is the law. They are now enforcing it. Is that Profiling ???? What is in the truck ???????????

We teach our kids to Profile... We also teach our wives to Profile..
It is simple commonsense to profile.........

 

[James T Thomas]

closer than a friend

Your range training went well, however, when he walked angrily away from you, might just be the time to walk angrily along with him; maintaining a one step contact distance. Don't go to the range with such a belligerant.

If the 21 foot "Tueller" drill proves that a man can close the distance between you and him before a trained man can draw and respond, then why not remain closer to him than 21 feet? Do not allow him to get that distance.
Especially if you are working with a partner and can resort to a blackjack to or flashlight to put the lights out.

Such "training" as you mention comes too close to being the type of response that is reflex; and there you are assuming the stance in reflex at this guy's shooting range, with him facing you as a stationary target.

 

[WardenWolf]

And this is why I only put 2 fingers in my pocket to extract my wallet if there's a cop watching. That's all I need to draw it out to where he can see it.

 

[GLOOB]

Quote:
dressed in "gang-banger" garb
Peakbagger -- This could open you up to a discussion about profiling. Although I know what you are talking about as does anyone who has ever lived in a major city the guy could have dressed that way and not been a criminal as you obviously found out.

Well, criminal waste of city resources, maybe? Here's a moron who intentionally reached for his wallet in a threatening manner and then feigned a heart attack to intentionally waste the time and resources of this officer and/or the local EMS. C'mon. Stomp away, then quickly stop, turn, and reach for your wallet? The officer is the one who could've had a heart attack.

He wasn't approaching the guy because of the clothes he was wearing. He wanted to speak to him about the confrontation. Would he have reponded fast enough had the guy been dressed in a suit? Hopefully. But if he had an edge in reaction time based on the guy's overall appearance and behavior, then call it what you will. It worked.

 

[scotthsi]

What state was this in? You're lucky you didn't go down for brandishing, reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon, disturbing the peace, etc. I live in Connecticut and that is very likely what would have happened had you pulled that sh^t there.

 

[PT1911]

if he was white it is a reasonable thing to do.. if he was black or latino, it was racist...:banghead:

 

[Doggy Daddy]

You're lucky you didn't go down for brandishing, reckless endangerment with a deadly weapon, disturbing the peace, etc. I live in Connecticut and that is very likely what would have happened had you pulled that sh^t there.

Cops get arrested for that in Connecticut? WOW!

DD

 

[twofifty]

QUOTE:
"Getting out of my car, I yelled, "let me see your hands!" The man complied, producing a wallet in the hand he had behind his back."

Now where did I read that ordering a suspect to 'let me see your hands!' can easily give the suspect the time/cover needed to draw, as the Officer is expecting the suspect's arm and hand to move in that way? This puts the Officer at a disadvantage.

Wouldn't it be better to order the suspect (who is facing you) and whose hidden hand is likely in his back pocket or rear waistband, to freeze right there. Once the suspect has stopped, order him to turn around slowly without moving his arms or hands.

This way, the Officer remains in control since the suspect can't as easily get the jump on him, and the suspect ends up facing away from the Officer.

 

[2RCO]

Profiling is natural. It's applying a schema to quickly assess a situation, and as such is intrinsic and favorable to cognition. A person who doesn't apply past experience to their current situation is generally regarded as naive, dimwitted, or even possessing a learning disorder.

I'm not making a statement either way on profiling just suggesting in todays climate that a Police Officer probably shouldn't post something on an Interweb Discussion board that might come back to bite em in the backside. A white kid dressed like a gangbanger that feels mistreated can still sue and find a sypathetic judge or jury.

 

[Jon_Snow]

twofifty, I'd be more worried about the period of time when his body shields his hand from view as he turns around. If he were going to do something stupid, he would probably turn with his left side towards the officer, then try to draw when his right hand is out of view. As it was, peak was in a position to see what the yahoo pulled out as soon as he did.

 

[ChCx2744]

..................

 

[thorazine]

I had to call for an ambulance shortly after as when the guy realized he almost got shot, he doubled over and went to the ground, complaining he had heart problems. He was not admitted to a hospital.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has a few attorneys on speed dial in his phone. =/

 

[nitetrane98]

That was pretty good tactics. I had a similar situation once but I always drew on the way out of the car. We could never come up with enough Crown Vics or Impalas to practice shooting through the windshield. I always figured the round would deflect down a certain amount and I never really knew how much so I figured I'd shoot through the door and the A pillar. My scenario training didn't include, "Show me your hands!" In my mind, if someone made a sudden unannounced move like drawing a weapon, I drew mine and at the first glimpse of a gun, I would fire. Thankfully it never had to happen that way, but that was my plan and was used on a couple of occasions where the subject realized he had just had an "oh s***" moment.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Y'all please keep in mind- S&T is primarily oriented toward the legally armed citizen, not LEOs or the military.

The lesson for armed citizens to take away from this incident report is that street contacts with LEOs need to be handled carefully and with due thought beforehand...

lpl

 

[Peakbagger46]

Lee,
I understand S&T is oriented toward good, gun carrying citizens. If you look to my origional post, I noted two reasons for sharing this experience- training works and I did not look at my sights as I should have. I hope you are OK with me posting this experience. Feel free to PM me with any concerns.

 

[sidheshooter]

Thanks for the post peakbagger; good food for thought there.

A question; do you think that your focus might have shifted on auto-pilot to the front sight if you saw something in his hands that warranted more immediate attention? Just curious–your training may have still been perfectly intact under the circumstances (as I read it, FWIW)...

 

[JKimball]

^ That's what I was thinking too. Do you train to only put someone in your sights when you have decided to shoot? Similarly, Did you have your finger on the trigger?

 

[Peakbagger46]

We train to cover the target in such a situation, and this is what I did. No, my finger was not on the trigger. I have drawn down on a lot of people, and have NEVER put my finger on the trigger. I would only do so if I was shooting, but I DO always point my gun directly at someone when i am in a high risk situation.

I don't know what my sight picture would have looked like had the object been a weapon. I am guessing I would have been point shooting for the first couple of rounds. Fortunatly, our patrol team practices point shooting, shooting on the move, and using the car as cover at the range.