Iraqi terrorist snipers learning from US expert

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Here is a little news for ya. Plaster was not a sniper in Vietnam. He has done a good job of making people believe so without outright saying so.
Kinda like all of Ayoobs "years on the street" when he was a "maverick officer". He was a reserve officer in a sleepy town where violent crime was almost unheard of.:rolleyes:

People who don't know any better have practically put these guys up for sainthood and hang on their every word.:rolleyes:
 
Here is a little news for ya. Plaster was not a sniper in Vietnam
Yeah, he was only running OPS into Cambodia as part of MACV-SOG...poser!:rolleyes: I always knew he wasn't a Vietnam sniper (cause he never said he was.) I never cared, his material is excellent and he knows his subject matter well.

Speaking of experts, Mas Ayoob is an expert with a ton of courtroom experience in self defense and shooting cases. If I wanted to learn how to do a big city stakeout...I'd find someone else. If I wanted to know about legal considerations regarding a shooting, he's got way more experience in that than most police officers, no matter how long they were on the street.

Who else can you get high quality information from? These guys aren't saint's, but the fact they don't meet some ideal in your head of what their background should be doesn't make their info any less valuable. I look to multiple sources for good info...and the best info is confirmed by multiple sources. Other people tend to make these guys into something they are not...its not all in their control. There are a lot of very high quality trainers and authors who do not have super-stud combat backgrounds.
 
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"If America was invaded, then people resisting with hunting rifles would probably be called Marksmen."

Wouldn't be the first time. That was about 230 years ago. Not much talk from americans about "gun control" back then, eh? Wonder why.:)
 
IV Troop said;
Here is a little news for ya. Plaster was not a sniper in Vietnam. He has done a good job of making people believe so without outright saying so.

Here's a little news for you. John Plaster has never claimed to have been a sniper in Vietnam. Never not once. In fact when I was in the 47th Infantry Division Sniper School which MAJ Plaster along with a little know soldier and shooter MAJ Gary Schraml concieved, wrote the POI for and convinced the chain of command to fund (this was before the Army's formal sniper school was created at Ft Benning), never once mentioned what he did in Vietnam.

I never knew what a great soldier he was until I read about him later. You wouldn't find a more humble man anywhere. He doesn't have to claim anything. His deeds as a soldier in MACV-SOG will speak for themselves for generations.

If you actually read his book, you'll find that in no where in it does he claim to have been a sniper in Vietnam. The experiences he relates in regards to camouflage are clearly explained as having happened in CONUS after Vietnam when he was doing some other things, watching for livestock theives if I recall correctly.

You can disagree with what he wrote in the book. Professionals can disagree about things in a civil manner. If he's still like he was at the school, I'm sure he'd be willing to sit and talk with you about the points you disagreed on.

But you can't, not for one minute insinuate that one of the finest soldiers this country ever produced is a poser.

Kinda like all of Ayoobs "years on the street" when he was a "maverick officer". He was a reserve officer in a sleepy town where violent crime was almost unheard of.

What's the population of Grantham, New Hampshire? What's the crime rate in Grantham, New Hampshire? For that matter, what's the crime rate in small towns in general? Do you have any idea?

Let me tell you, that you have the same crimes in Mayberry as you do in the South Bronx. There are drugs bought and sold everywhere, and the gang violence that often accompanies it has invaded small town America. People in small towns still shoot, stab and bludgeon each other at about the same rate as they do in the big city. The only difference is that in the big city, there is more of it because there are more people.

There is another difference between working for a small town police department and a big city one. In the small town, you don't have a fraction of the resources to deal with a situation that you have in the city. As I type this at 1:33 am there are probably 9 police officers on duty in the rural county I'm in. Around 1000 square miles of territory and about 30,000 people. In the big city you can have several officers on scene to back you up in a couple of minutes. Officers who work in small towns and in rural counties might wait 20 minutes or more for one officer to back them up. That's a long time to fight alone if you have to. Officers who work in small towns routinely handle calls alone that a bigger department would send two to four officers to handle.

The job is the same everywhere. The difference is the resources.

I never have been able to understand why some people feel the need to put down people they have never met. :scrutiny:

Jeff
 
There are drugs bought and sold everywhere, and the gang violence that often accompanies it has invaded small town America. People in small towns still shoot, stab and bludgeon each other at about the same rate as they do in the big city.

Except in said rural areas, I doubt you'd see the deadbeat son of a welfare-queen in the projects pull a drive-by because someone disrespected their homies.

I grew up in S. Florida. Crime here is NOT like crime there, and not just in quantity. It's a matter of culture.
 
Manedwolf,
There are drivebys in Centralia and Mt Vernon, the two largest towns in my area, neither of them with a population of 20,000. Gangster Disciples pretty much control the cocaine business in this area and they bring in shooters from the big cities. We also get the hardcore bangers hiding out with fellow bangers in the rural areas when it gets too hot for them in the city. Not a daily occurance but they do happen. Mt Vernon just had one a week or so ago.

The job is the same everywhere.....

Jeff
 
Nothing compared to how we trained the Muj in Afghanistan

I just finished the book "Charlie Wilson's War." Thanks to the ego of one man and the incestuous way congress works, we did far more in Afghanistan to train the future terrorists than Major Plaster could have ever done via a commonly published book.

We taught them how to use combined arms (machine gun and mortars, RPG and rifles, etc.), how to bait and plan an ambush, how to use frequency hopping radios, how to use GPS guided mortars, how to make IEDs, car bombs, mule bombs, bicycle bombs, etc.

All with the single-mided purpose of defeating the Soviets at all costs. And with the naive notion that the Muslims would love us for all that we did for them. Reality was that they were turning on us (and themselves) before the even fully won back Afghanistan.

No, we did far more lethal training and arming of the Islamic terrorists with mountains of the latest arms and ammunition long before Major Plaster published his books.

We in the US have to recognize that our single greatest strength above all other nations is our relentless and diverse invention of methods and equipment in all aspects of life. The terrorists will likely keep using the mountains of stockpiled arms and ammo from the 1990s for the next 20 years. we need to aggressively invest our time, talent, and money into continuously inventing better equipment and tactics to counter and pre-empt what we have already given them.

Just as their social thinking has been stuck in the 7th century, I am confident their military thinking will now be stuck in the 1990s. We need to work hard to make them obsolete ASAP rather than try to get every last use out of our own 1990ish equipment and methods.

The real question is, "Do we have the national determination and will to out invent our adversaries?"
 
If Hadji thinks it appropriate to DVD video of Americans soldiers taking a hit, then I think it entirely appropriate for the US to go and do likewise. I think a few choice videos of a Barrett at work will do wonders for moral. Maybe a few products of nighttime sniper operations doing a number on a team emplacing and IED is appropriate.
 
Except in said rural areas, I doubt you'd see the deadbeat son of a welfare-queen in the projects pull a drive-by because someone disrespected their homies.

In fact, there was a drive-by here just a couple months ago that killed a 37 year old father of 3 from my hometown. A couple of El Nortes got cut off in traffic by a black guy going home from work at JB Hunt. His passenger, the 37 yo white male, was his best friend. The driver of the attacker's vehicle told his girlfriend to get a handgun out of the glovebox and hand it to the other banger in the back seat. One fusillade of .357 Sig later, we had what is being called a "road rage" killing. In reality, it was a "you dissed my homie" killing. Sound familiar?

The numbers in our concealed carry classes have gone up sharply since then, and on questioning our students, this killing is one of the most frequent reasons they say they want a concealed carry permit. Can't blame 'em.
 
I haven't read Plaster's book but I HAVE read Ion L. Idriess' "Sniping" which is a part of his "Guerilla Series". It's been around since ~ 1940 when the Aussie gov't commisioned him to write the series for the common civilian in response to the expected Japanese invasion. He WAS a sniper and sniper chaser in Palestine WWI. It is considered by some to be the definitive book on sniping technique. He stresses concealment skills, information gathering and keeping a cool head as being just as important as marksmanship. Having read that book and a couple others and given the fact that I am what he calls a "crack shot" can I now consider myself to be a sniper? Not a chance. Can I hide somewhere, take potshots at an enemy and score a few hits? Sure, till a real sniper comes along, then I'm in BIG trouble. :D
 
Terrorists use training manuals?

Yawn.

There's a certain Darwinian thing going on here, any bad guys still alive and active in the Sandbox have lived through a lot of stuff that has already killed their dumber/slower/weaker brethren.

A lot of those who remain have the experience to observe that spray & pray isn't exactly great military doctrine, and have set about figuring out what else to do that maybe is going to, you know, improve their odds of surviving 'till tomorrow.

Of course, their best odds are to burn their uniforms, toss their guns, and get with the whole "free, peacable, productive citizen of the 21st century" thing.
 
I have a book on Heart Surgery that my dad got when he was in the hospital.

Does that make me a heart surgeon?

You can't learn how to be a sniper from reading a book anymore than you can learn to do open heart surgery from one...... :rolleyes:
 
While it is dissapointing to hear that insurgents are actually seeking training and information (rather than allowing us to teach them "the hard way") Plaster's book (which I have read) is hardly the only source for that information. There are dozens aof english books on sniping, and I am certain there are many more in Russian, Arabic, and any other language.

Besides, I can go to the PX and buy Counter-Terrorist, Sniper, Counter-Insurgency, Long Range Reconnasaince, and almost any other Army manual. Go on-line and just about every one is up there. Armored vehicle maintenence manuals, troop strength and organization, radio communication guides, etc. Sit a guy in a room with enough time and willpower and he will walk out thinking and sounding just like one of our guys.

I fail to see how this article should bother anyone, other than to let us know that an insurgent sniper may actually know about bullet drop and how to set up a half-decent shooting position.
 
To say the crime rate is about the same in all cities is asinine. That's why crime is measured per 100,000 people. The same crimes do happen in smaller cities as big ones but obviously at a much lower rate, usually. This is not to say that there are not rough small towns, and quiet big ones. A cop on the force for five years in Fredionia, NY will usually have a lot less violent crime experience than a five year cop in New Orleans, La.

This is not meant to discount Mas Ayoob's experience. He has probably forgotten more that I will ever know. I even hope to take one of his classes one day.
 
Simo Haya - Finland - 500+ confirmed kills
Nikolay Yakovlevich - Russia - 496 confirmed kills
Ilyin Vasili Zaitsev - Russia - 400 confirmed
Adelbert Waldron III - USA - 109 confirmed
Carlos Hathcock - USA - 93 confirmed
The first US Army school was after the Korean War cease-fire.
Russian snipers have 40,000+ kills and wounds.
I know that Russian "snipers" are not like our snipers, but 400 kills is 400 kills and 40,000 hits is alot of experience. Is it something in their training and doctrine, or is just the right people in the right place during the right war? My guess is that we use our snipers for specific and high value targets only, or for recon, where other militaries are just going for numbers. I'm not a sniper, so I'm going on assumptions. If the Iraqi terrosist are going off US tactics, will they be very selective in their targets? What if the terrorist utilize the Russian WW2 doctine, which (I assume) is to just hit as many people as you can? I'd be more concerned if they tried to emulate Russian snipers, who I think are the worlds most experienced. Russia found alot of flaws during Afghanistan and Chechnya, but people learn from mistakes, and the best learned lessons are the hardest.
 
Does anyone really think this guy is showing good weapons handling and position? I know it's just a posed photo, but I am not impressed. The butt of the stock is in his elbow, no sling, he is using his left eye, he is shooting offhand, he is canting the gun (so much for elevation and windage), and a bad cheekweld (possibly due to his eye issue). If he is truly left eye dominant, a better approach would be to learn to shoot left handed since this looks awkward as hell. I do like the leather shooting jacket however. ;) I don't know about you all but if this guy is an example of their trained snipers, I think our soldiers can breathe a sigh of relief.

JM
 
But if it is true that Iraqi marksmen (NOT snipers, they didn't earn the title) are becoming more prevelant, that is obviously a very bad thing.

I dun see what the problem is here. If your country were invaded by, say, the French (they're fighting in the same of spreading snootiness and really lousy cigarettes, let's say) you'd be hunkered down in the bushes picking them off with your deer rifle, too.

Does that make you an evil dirty sniper, because you aren't fighting fair by running out into the open street with an AK, shouting about Allah (I guess you'd have an AR and be shouting about Uncle Sam, if the situation were reversed) while rushing the enemy?

At least they're taking the time to aim, and not catching as many innocent women, children, and fuzzy woodland creatures in the crossfire.
 
Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit "odd" to put a scope on an AK to call it a sniper rifle?

That's like putting 4 wheels on Rosie O'Donnel and calling her a Minivan.
 
With all of the military guides and manuals that are freely available online these days, I think that book is getting too much credit.
 
Reading a book does not a master marksman make you. It takes training, range time, effort and discipline. Is this something in large supply in the Iraqi insurgency? I don't think so.
 
I think the Brit's point was that if we had press censorship that wouldn't happen and if we had not revolted and thrown off the rule of her noble and glorious majesty, we would have press censorship and a ban on civilian guns so no one would be allowed to read such a book except government snipers. Rule Britannia!

Jim
 
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