Irate man in doctors office.

[Tim Burke]

No harm, as long as you keep your finger off the trigger during the draw...
However, if you are appropriately trained and practiced, there was no benefit. If there is potential for harm, and no benefit, why do it?

 

[Victor1Echo]

Sounds like a case of Obamacare to me!

 

[Hanzo581]

When you say "threatening" the lady, what was he saying?

 

[uspJ]

When you say "threatening" the lady, what was he saying?

\

He started out with telling them how incompetent they were. When the woman tried to apologize and explain he started saying things like he would come over the counter and show her what sorry was. This was after he had allready threw the clipboard at her head.

When he came in the second time it was basicallly more of the same. He went off about how he was the wrong one to be giving the run around to and that he was done being "Mr. Nice Guy", thats when he left the second time.

On his third trip in it was Jekyll and Hyde. He was trying to apologize but was getting very agitated when the clerk kept refusing to come out and speak to him. You could physically see him trying to calm himself or control himself.

 

[uspJ]

Sounds like a case of Obamacare to me!

I can understand people getting agitated over their healthcare and things of that nature. I really can. Going off on the people who work there is not going to help your case. Having the run around put on you is no exuse to go threatening people who are just doing what they have to do to make a living.

My bank misplaced 8k of my money, they tried to give me the run around about it. It took 2 days of me going up there and working with them to get it resolved. Was I angry? Absolutely. Did I throw things and threaten the clerks? No. I would have most likely been in a worse situation and the money I was trying to get back would have been a drop in the pan to what I may have possibly spent in legal fees for a temper tantrum.

 

[gun guy]

Um, in any potential "situtation" the first thing is to remove yourself, and your loved ones. Always avoid a confrontation if possible, unless you are an off duty PD, it is NOT your job to save the day. The first people to sue you, for esculating a situation, is those you think you need to save. After you are well clear of the area, call the police. Only then, after all other options have been exhausted, and if you are cornered, should you even consider, "sweeping the safety" So some guy is running off at the mouth, what are you going to do? Pull your weapon? If he has nothing visible, you just threatened him with deadly force. He has a beef, stay out of it. You don't know all the details. If he attacks someone, thats a little different, but still may not warrent deadly force. Assualt and Battery doesn't rate the death penalty. Carrying a concealed weapon, more than ever demands you avoid a situation, where you need to use it. It doesnt put a white hat on your head, and make you deputy dawg.

 

[Azb]

Sounds like a case of Obamacare to me!

I'm no fan of Obamacare, but the current bureaucracy in health care is certainly not his fault.

To the OP, at least you were aware and had a plan of action. I'm sure most of the folks in the waiting room and the staff were completely condition white. Well done!

Az

 

[Nushif]

Mine would have turned around and corrected the old fellar for using bad language in front of ladies and children.

I find generally speaking the last thing a person willing to chuck items wants to hear is some moral superiority speech from a freakin' old lady who starts gaffing at him. I'd have highly discouraged her in that case.
Not for fear or anything but rather to not add some noisy din to the situation.

The people at the counter did kinda seem err ... complacent? ... lame ... I don't know. they didn't do *anything?* That is the most suspect thing in this whole case to me, tbh.

As for the guy, I'm sure you could have taken care of him relatively easily with minimal risk, even by just tackling his ass. But I'm kinda thinking any act of restraining on him would have likely been met with the personnel there making it sound like *you* are the evil premeditating guy who tackled a defenseless victim in cold blood. Simply because they have no concept of a need for physical violence it seems.

 

[killchain]

\

He started out with telling them how incompetent they were. When the woman tried to apologize and explain he started saying things like he would come over the counter and show her what sorry was. This was after he had allready threw the clipboard at her head.

When he came in the second time it was basicallly more of the same. He went off about how he was the wrong one to be giving the run around to and that he was done being "Mr. Nice Guy", thats when he left the second time.

On his third trip in it was Jekyll and Hyde. He was trying to apologize but was getting very agitated when the clerk kept refusing to come out and speak to him. You could physically see him trying to calm himself or control himself.

Pre-read note: I am not a lawyer. Do not take my advice as legal council. Consult a lawyer.

The factor to consider here is "What kind of crime was this man committing, or planning on committing?"

Since he winged a clipboard at her head, I would think it would classify as a battery. This, however, could be different depending on your local and state laws. The reason for this is because the action was unexpected. The difference between an "assault" and a "battery" is that the assault is expected and feared, whereas the battery was unexpected. At least this is my understanding from reading this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault

Please, feel free to correct me if I'm reading any of that wrong. It is kind of hard to sort.

Anyway, let's put this situation into my perspective. In my state, Washington, you can use deadly force to stop a felony where someone could be hurt. Also, assault is a Class A felony.

"RCW 9A.36.011
Assault in the first degree.


(1) A person is guilty of assault in the first degree if he or she, with intent to inflict great bodily harm:

(a) Assaults another with a firearm or any deadly weapon or by any force or means likely to produce great bodily harm or death; or

(b) Administers, exposes, or transmits to or causes to be taken by another, poison, the human immunodeficiency virus as defined in chapter 70.24 RCW, or any other destructive or noxious substance; or

(c) Assaults another and inflicts great bodily harm.

(2) Assault in the first degree is a class A felony."

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.011

RCW 9A.16.040 covers peace/police officers and "persons aiding:"

"RCW 9A.16.040
Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.

(1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases:
[...]
(i) To arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony;"

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

RCW 9A.16.040 covers civilians specifically:

"RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is."

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050

The laws here in my state grant me the legal protection to defend anyone in my presence from a felony, specifically one with the intent to harm. I would have done the exact same things you did, OP.

Except I don't carry a 1911 pistol.

 

[uspJ]

Um, in any potential "situtation" the first thing is to remove yourself, and your loved ones. Always avoid a confrontation if possible, unless you are an off duty PD, it is NOT your job to save the day. The first people to sue you, for esculating a situation, is those you think you need to save. After you are well clear of the area, call the police. Only then, after all other options have been exhausted, and if you are cornered, should you even consider, "sweeping the safety" So some guy is running off at the mouth, what are you going to do? Pull your weapon? If he has nothing visible, you just threatened him with deadly force. He has a beef, stay out of it. You don't know all the details. If he attacks someone, thats a little different, but still may not warrent deadly force. Assualt and Battery doesn't rate the death penalty. Carrying a concealed weapon, more than ever demands you avoid a situation, where you need to use it. It doesnt put a white hat on your head, and make you deputy dawg.

in any potential "situtation" the first thing is to remove yourself, and your loved ones.

As I stated in the opening post my first reaction was to leave. My grandmother who refused repeatedly was/is still recovering from shoulder surgery and was wearing a large water cast that has a gallon cooler attatched to it. It would have been a bit tough to drag her out against her will without causing harm to her. If I had been alone I would have rescheduled for a later date once I was outside. I'm not about to leave a 72 year old woman with one usuable arm alone with an irate man making threats and having a tantrum.

Always avoid a confrontation if possible, unless you are an off duty PD, it is NOT your job to save the day. The first people to sue you, for esculating a situation, is those you think you need to save[/QUOTE]

Agreed 100 %

So some guy is running off at the mouth, what are you going to do? Pull your weapon? If he has nothing visible, you just threatened him with deadly force. He has a beef, stay out of it. You don't know all the details.

When did I say I would draw or threaten him without justification? I never said a word to the guy. What he has going on in his life is no concern to me, nor are the details of his problems. How he handles said problems aren't my concern either untill he forgets to wear his big boy pants and starts acting hostile in the presence of me or my loved ones.

If he attacks someone, thats a little different, but still may not warrent deadly force. Assualt and Battery doesn't rate the death penalty.

Again, I agree with you...and again, as I stated in the opening post when the man came back in to confront the clerks the second time he had a large bulge in his pocket which combined with his eratic behavior caused me to feel a bit of concern.

Carrying a concealed weapon, more than ever demands you avoid a situation, where you need to use it. It doesnt put a white hat on your head, and make you deputy dawg.

I fail to see how I acted like a deputy dawg. I made no contact with the man, I never presented my weapon, and I only moved to a place of advantage after he came in the parking lot like a bat out of hell and was making his way into the building for the third time.

Now if I had jumped up at the first sign of trouble and pinned on my CCW badge, uncovered my weapon and told the guy to take his complaints elsewhere before I give him lead poisoning then yeah I could see that I was acting like a deputy dawg, super civillian or whatever phrase puts a smile on your face.

 

[uspJ]

The people at the counter did kinda seem err ... complacent? ... lame ... I don't know. they didn't do *anything?* That is the most suspect thing in this whole case to me, tbh.

If they did anything, it was after we had left. The lady who cursed the guy out from the other room felt that the toungue lashing she gave him would keep him away. The other receptionist reminded me that they had told him that he was not allowed to come back to their office anymore. Maybe they were trying to play the situation down in front of me or maybe they were that naive. I don't know.

 

[Kleanbore]

The OP described the incident and asked for comments. Most responses have been supportive and/or constructive. Seems to me that things are starting to go in circles and are covering the same ground twice.

If anyone has anything substantive to add, send a PM and we'll consider reopening.