Ireland. PLEASE READ.

[cuchulainn]

the ira was disbanded. we beat them without guns.

You didn't beat them. The English wore them down ... with lots and lots of guns, armored cars, helicopters and other nasty tools.

 

[auschip]

200 people per 100k is a lot.

the ira was disbanded. we beat them without guns. there is that key.

200 people per 100k is .2% which is not statistically significant. I thought Euros where supposed to be better at math then those in the US.

You beat the IRA without guns? What were those things UK troops were carrying with them on patrols in Northern Ireland? Here's a hint, they weren't golf clubs.

I committed the cardinal sin, feeding the troll statistics.

 

[SLCDave]

We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

Irish news pretty much tends to cover everything. theres only about 4 million people.

So only 24 of you have to worry? Why do I doubt your statistics?

You neglect one nagging truth in your ideal scenario: Criminals have no interest in obeying the law. That is what makes them a criminal in the first place.

 

[sense]

i saw bowling for colombine and i said i made some good points. i wouldnt exactly call it a 'hot movie' its been out for years. i saw it becasue i reminded me of what cinema was like in the old days when whole familys went to watch new posts.

 

[sense]

200 lives saved a year, it wasnt maths was talking about.

i dont understand SLCDave's point. 24? and i already talked at lengh about why they dont ahve guns. its the truth not an ideal senario..

 

[nico]

i dotn think itls likely our govenment will suddenly all simultanously turn into maniacs.

I'm sure that's what the Germans were thinking when they elected Hitler

 

[sense]

i have to go to bed soon, so ill counter any points that appear until i find a gap then im leaving. not running :/

 

[MechAg94]

that was a long post but i countered ever point ^^

No, you didn't. You just keep repeating the same bad logic.

 

[dolanp]

One other thing that is important to understand when talking about the US is that the states have some level of sovereignty (Raich aside!) and are in fact quite different from each other. What's popular in New York City does not need to be applied to rural Texas, for example, because we can behave ourselves. Comparing Ireland to the US is about as useful as comparing Belgium to South America.

 

[sense]

a single person should never be given so much power. i think you guys are finding that out..? i mean you do regularly people of protecting yourselves against your own government..

 

[jefnvk]

In ireland and the uk, we have no guns. all guns are banned. We are not afraid to walk the streets or feel the need to carry weapons to 'save our familys' this is because in the 6 in 1 million chance that some one did break into our homes, we would be safe in the knowlage that they too, would not be armed.

If guns are illegal and also very hard to get then not even petty crimanals can get one, so if someone has a gun they are arrested immediatly and there is no harm done. we almost never hear about major robberies or homocide on the news, because if someone trys to rob a bank wiht only a knife, its likely that he wont do any more harm then a minor stab wound before he is caught.

If there are guns lying around the house your children are at a huge risk. kids are curious, if you say 'NEVER touch that' they arnt listening. or at least they eventually stop listening.

or if somone is feeling a bit deppressed or angry (we all do occasionly) you are doing the worst thing possibe; arming them..

we dislike our govenment in ireland too, we watch then like hawks and tease every mistake, but thyre ususally just listening to the majority.

the movie bowling for colombine is one to watch, even if micheal does try and streach somt things to far. guns are rarely used for protecting anything. only for killing.

if you have a gun then your attack will too, it just depends whose fastest, and hes the one with no moral consience. isn't it better to have the time to run or call the police then have blood on your hands or pumping from the fresh hole in your chest?

I'm not afraid to walk the streets unarmed. But, I am also not afraid to drive without a seatbelt. However, the seatbelt is there in case I need it, as will a weapon when I am deemed old enough to carry one. I don't feel I need it, but it is better to have it and not need, than to need it and not have it.

I hardly hear of murder on the news where I live. In fact, the last time there was a murder in the county, in the past bunch of times, it was with a knife. I never recall a gun used in a murder in the county. And we aren't exactly anti-gun around here.

Parents have the responsibility to keep their kids safe. Contrary to popular belief, kids should not be allowed to run around unsupervised. If a parent is a gun owner, they should be supervising their kid, and have the guns secured so that they are inaccessible to the kids. And stupid parents should not prevent me from owning guns, especially since I am not a parent.

If someone is feeling depressed or angry, there are plenty of other ways for them to kill themselves. Rope, water and butter knives all come to mind.

I do believe that the statistics show that there are about 30,000 deaths from guns a year, half from suicides, and many hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns, and that is the number that anti-gun groups will quote. Pro gun groups put the number at a million or more.

Just because I have a gun, does not mean my attacker will. And whoever is smarter will win the encounter. And contrary to belief, my gun will not just be taken away from me. I'll let you try and grab the end of my barrel while my finger is on the trigger.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you? You sound like someone who is in middle school (about the ages of 12-15 or so in America).

Guess what? I am 19. I got 20 or so guns, including my three handguns, and bunch of 'assualt' weapons, depending on whsoe definition you use. They have never threatened or shot anyone. They are no more dangerous than the har =d drive sitting on my desk by themselves. Guns are not the problem. There was murder before guns, and if all guns disappeared tomorrow, there would still be murder. People are the problem.

 

[akluvr]

Can someone close this thread before I have a stroke?

 

[cuchulainn]

when we WON it was without guns. minor scuffules and a lot of brain.

The fighting war -- with lots of guns -- drove the English to the negotiation table where, incidentally, the Irish walked away with less than what they came to the table wanting, so much for brain power. No, there were not pitched battles (at least the Irish were too smart for that). But the notion that Irish independence was won without guns is simply historically wrong.

 

[auschip]

200 lives saved a year, it wasnt maths was talking about.

That is assaults committed per 100,000 people, not people killed. Apparently you weren't talking about English or Math.

 

[nico]

I do believe that the statistics show that there are about 30,000 deaths from guns a year, half from suicides, and many hundreds of thousands of defensive uses of guns, and that is the number that anti-gun groups will quote.

and history (Australia) shows that removing guns doesn't affect the overall suicide rate.

 

[sense]

im pretty young.. what does

sovereignty (Raich aside!)

mean?

your under the same govenment unlike belguim and south america, plus south america is a continant not a country and most of it is third world. ireland and amrica arnt that dissimmilar. your just bigger. its why you tend to be seen as most the rest odf the world as a bit of a bully. i mean.. vietnam.. iraq..

you took things a bit far..

i dont blame the individuals. i blame your education system..

 

[ZenMasterJG]

jefnvk excellent post.
i woulndt bother trying to reason with this kid though
:banghead:
plus its almost 11:00pm in ireland, obviously past his bedtime.

 

[secamp32]

sense

I would guess from your post that you are young, probably a middle or high school student? When you are young, life's problems seem so simple to solve. Just a new law here, a little tax there and everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately, as we get older and more experienced we see that life is more complicated. Enjoy the simplemindedness of young. Once its gone it never returns.

 

[sense]

bwa, i should ahvegone already im tired. 19 sounds to me so icredably unsafe having guns around. my god i just sounds so dangerous. its much easier to kill with guns. so much easier that you can do it by accident. at least with a knife you'd have to be really really damn serious.

we came away with less then we asked for but more then we might have gotten. we did well and it can't be denyed. ill check this thred in the morning to see if there arnt any REALLY stupid arguments.

if i give my age you will belive my opinions are worth nothing. ageism is such a terrible thing..

 

[dolanp]

And you're saying you blame OUR education system for making US ignorant? Right....

I don't like public education here very much but it sounds like you poor Irish are really screwed.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Greetings.

I don't care to put my dog in this fight, as my ancestors dumped that part of the world for obvious reasons to come 'over here' in 1624. I will, however, share some observations from a couple of Gentlemen I respect and appreciate, as such, to wit:


"Freedom is not empowerment. Empowerment is what the Serbs have in Bosnia. Anybody can grab a gun and be empowered. It's not entitlement. An entitlement is what people on welfare get, and how free are they? It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights—the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery—hay and a barn for human cattle. There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences."

-P.J. O'Rourke

"America wasn't founded so that we could all be better. America was founded so we could all be anything we damn well please." -- P.J. O'Rourke


"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." ~~ James Madison, The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244


Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[MechAg94]

Yes, typical BS. Don't provide any of your own proof, just make claims, then try to shoot down all the counter-arguments, then claim you won and are right.

I note "sense" has no experience with firearms, no experience in an armed society, yet seems to assume that Ireland is superior. I just gotta laugh at that.

Didn't he say there are no gangs in Ireland? That is because for years they only had ONE gang. It was called the IRA. Give it time.

 

[sense]

I would guess from your post that you are young, probably a middle or high school student? When you are young, life's problems seem so simple to solve. Just a new law here, a little tax there and everything will be wonderful. Unfortunately, as we get older and more experienced we see that life is more complicated. Enjoy the simplemindedness of young. Once its gone it never returns.

there you go, i post one thing to let me sleep and 5 seconds later there it is. ageism.

i do not think i could solve the worlds problems, im just trying to let everyone see everyone point of view. i do it all the time, got to see the world from all perspectives. i NEVER think 'just passing this or taxing that' would solve ANYTHING. that is not in human nature. i mean look right now the proof, both sides presenting the case and still problems. of course there is. the law wouldnt chang a thing, you ahve to change the perspective.
dont be agist, dotn be racist, dont be homophobic, dont be sexist and from your view everyone is your equal if their a begger on a street or a foregn minister. after all, perspective is all we REALLY have.

 

[eagle45]

Wasn't there a little boy from France that posted the same sentiments recently?

I have only one comment:

SPELLCHECKER

 

[Sean Smith]

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

Gun control really is a perfect target for their show. It is totally irrational. It is, in fact, practically a mental illness.

The pretext is that gun control protects the public. But Washington, DC has some of the strictest gun control in the country, and is the murder capital of the country on a regular basis. Dallas has one of the worst murder rates in a city in a CCW-friendly state, because the city is run by a bunch of slack-jawed retards, and it is still a small fraction of that of DC or Detroit.

Gun control simply does not stand up to rational examination. It doesn't accomplish anything it is claimed to accomplish. You can leave "rights" completely out of the discussion, and gun control still flunks on all fronts.

Funny thing is, the UK doesn't have dramatically lower crime rates, to include violent crime rates, than the US does. They haven't for quite a while. Some violent crimes are more likely in the US, some in the UK. The Economist (pro-stringent gun control, last I checked) published a crime study a few years back done by a European university that showed that victimization rates were often higher in the UK than in the US. In many categories the US wasn't even in the top 10 when you included other European countries.

The special awfulness of US crime is simply mythical. People watch Dirty Harry and Lethal Weapon, and think that's reality, then talk down to people from crime-saturated America.

Our places with UK-level gun control have the highest violent crime, by far. For instance: New York City, Washington DC. And the gang-bangers aren't all driving to Vermont (crime rate: nil) to get illicit guns, since the Swamp Yankees up there would just kill them.

I wouldn't be surprised if our WORST crime areas were worse than their counterparts in the UK, but unless you plan on going on a cruse in Crack Whore Central in Detroit, that's not terribly meaningful to 99% of US residents, let alone tourists.

None of which is to say that we don't have crime problems, of course we do. But so does almost everybody else.

Notes:

"CCW-friendly" = it is easy to get a permit to lawfully carry a concealed firearm in that locality.
Vermont has essentially no state-level gun control at all (and almost no crime).
"Swamp yankee" is slang for a rural New Englander.
"Gang banger" is a reference to criminal gang members, not group sex


Another factor to consider is that most of the United States is still barely-inhabited wilderness, a fact that is simply not grasped by millions of people, including many Americans. Many people in this country live in rather remote areas. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is not possible for someone who hasn't driven across this country to have any concept of its size or its physical emptiness. Counting on the police to protect you, be it from a burglar or a bear, is simply a fantasy in vast areas of this country.

But you know better than us, because you've seen our action movies.