Is .44Mag a practical self defence caliber?

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As I posted earlier I carry one CCW and no I'm not a small guy I carry an airlight .44M. I have carried it for a while now and find it comfortable but as for me I carry it because I can hit what I want with it and my wilderness area I live in makes it a good carry gun, but I am a fan of carrying a gun you are used to, and shoot well with so my vote is for what your best with.
 
I sense a lot of "I've heard tell" here, and not a lot of been there, done that. I daily carry either of my .44 magnums, a 4" pre model 29 or a 6.5" 629 classic. I get flamed on the internet, looked at like I am crazy, and even tounge lashed to a certain degree, because I work church security, and carry a .44 . I have heard that a DA will give a person no end of trouble for carrying a .44 magnum, for carying handloads, for caryying hollow point bullets, etc., etc., etc. The fact is, you are either justified in using deadly force, or you are not. PERIOD! As a concealed carry instructor, I know this. I teach it three or four Saturdays a month. North Carolina places no restrictions on whqt type or caliber handgun may be used as a concealed carry weapon. There is no restriction on what type of ammunition you are permited to carry. PERIOD! I teach this stuff, O.K.?

The national averages for the percentage of bullets fired by law enforcement that actuall hit the target is around 15%. 85% of the bullets fired do not hit the intended target. The 85% are the ones we have control over. Learn to shoot. Then worry about "overpenetration". YOu can't shoot through a hostage, and hit a bad guy, right? So how can you shoot through a bad guy, and hit an innocent person? You are responsible for where your bullets go, either before they hit the intended target, or after.

If you want to study terminal ballistics, the first thing you must understand is the fallacy of gelitin testing. Gellitin simulates muscle tissue. Human beings are not made entirely from muscle. One of the most frequently hit places in a real gunfight are the hands and arms. There a some really big, tough bones in ther, and they are presented such that it is a raking shot, not a pass through of the thinnest cross section. First, a bullet can vere off it's intended course very easily, and this is exerbated by bullet shapes that are not flat. Second, you may have to shoot through ten to fifteen inches of muscle and bone to get a bullet into the vitals this way.

Ballistic testing on cadavers has given human skin an equivalent value of about three inches of muscle penetration. If you bullet passes completely through a skinny crack head, then you must immediately subtract six inches from you calculations for the skin. A minimum of ten inches for his sorry body, and you are left with?.... Not much. The problem is, most adult human males are a lot thicker than ten inches. Go to a prison some time. What do you see? A bunch of guys all swelled up from pumping iron. I personally have a 52 inch chest, and weigh 285 pounds. My real job is stone masonry. Just pull your head out of that gun magazine for a minute, and you will be up gunning tomorrow.

The FBI once spent a lot of money to prove that penetration is the key to bullet performance. They also found that they had never been successfully sued in reguards to a pass through and the resulting damage.

Brassfetcher.com, or something like that is a real eye opener. The so called "service " calibers all penetrate in the 9-13 inch range in gellitin. A 180 grain hornady xtp at 1550 feet per second penetrated Less than most of the service calibers. When you look at the relative feableness of ALL handgun rounds, the size and strength of a likely antagonist, and the fact that clothing, bones, the angle that you are likely to be presented with for a shot
( do you really think a perp is goung to stand there like a target on a firing range?), how can you feel good about anything smaller than a 44 mag, or hot 45 long Colt? I know I don't. That's why I carry what I carry. If you can't handle a magnum, you had better get real good at shooting them through the head while they are knifing you, shooting you, or beating you.
 
Yeah, I think you got it. But I still like my swiss army knife. Also, throwing knives are fun because any mugger or burglar that sees someone 6'02" throwing knives at them is going to know they are in serious deep ****.
 
No. The .44 isn't the only self defense caliber. But it is the biggest caliber that I can control, and as I said, or think I said above, my loads are a light magnum, heavy special. I am loking for 1100 to 1200 feet per second in a 250 grain bullet. Penetration trumps ecpansion every time. If I could control a 500 magnum, or a 480 Ruger, and if it was in a handgun no bigger than a regular Redhawk, not the Super Redhawk, then I would definately move up in power. I am a big guy, almost three hundred pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal, and I just can't hide a super Redhawk, or an X frame smith.

For my wife, a model 15, or possibly a model 19 Smith is about tops. Again, I distrust light fast bullets. Slow heavy bullets are better, but fast HEAVY bullets, particularly with a flat point, are best. I would feel better armed with a model 15, and 173 grain keith bullets than i would with any 9mm. Accuracy and penetration. Hitler's personal body guards carried po8 Lugers in .30 Luger. If you read the Thompson LaGuard tests, the .30 was the only one that caused a one shot stop on any of the livestock. Why? Penetration.

Everything else being equal, I like to see people carry the biggest caliber they can do good work with. I personally don't with anything other than K,L,and N frame Smith and Wessons. I shot a Python once, and really liked it. I can do O.K. with a Sig p220. But if the chips are down, I want a gun that says "Smith and Wesson", and "Magnum" on the barrel. If you shoot a 1911 better, go for it, but remember they really don't penetrate all that well. I lost all interest in .45 acps when i shot a snapping turtle with one. It barely penetrated. That was with Hydro shoks or ball. My .44, with Keith style bullets made a hole you could see through, literally.

My main point is that shootings are in the real world, and no one is going to stand there and let you shoot them, if you are justified in using deadly force. There is very seldom a "presentation" that looks anythimg like a target on a range. Almost every defensive shooting will be a dynamic thing, wth odd angles, powder burns, and multiple shots without aiming. That was the hardest part for me; learning to use a revolver like a staple gun. Most gunfights are two shots, less than ten feet, and less than two seconds. It took me forever to get this through my head. If they would stand there and let me shoot them, a .22 would be fine. I guess I have shot twenty or more hogs with my .22. That's just not the way it is when you are hunting WILD hogs, so I use a 44. Same with real world gunfights, understand?
A twelve gauge isn't enough, when you really get down to it. My advice is to carry the biggest darn thing you can shoot well, and don't worry so much about all this gun magazine stuff. Most of it is made up anyway. Do what people who want to kill something (handgun hunters)do, use enough gun.
 
Just been through this whole debate in my head and looking at the information in magazines and internet. In the end I went for the Federal Hydrashock 240 gr at about 1100 fps in my Ruger Redhawk 4". I figured this should shoot about the same as standard 44 mag 240 grain loads so at SD distances I won't have to worry about my POA changing with the lighter bullets offered by other SD manufacturers. If the bullet expands as well as other Hydrashock loads then I don't feel this is too excessive for a SD load.
This is obviously very dependent on the assailant aswell as others have said, if the guy (or gal) is 6' 6" and 350lbs and wearing Carhart jacket and bibs and out of his head on Meth then who knows if even this will be enough, if 100lbs and 5' tall in their swimsuit then I think it would be way overkill but the reality is we don't know who is going to be kicking our door in so I prefer to have extra power available.

I have the luxury of having my gun cabinet in my bedroom, I have an M9 Beretta, two 357 mag revolvers, a 44 mag and a short barrel pump 12 gauge with 00 buck all ready and available and a large dog who can detect anyone outside long before they reach the house. So I have some choice on what to grab in a situation occuring in the middle of the night. My 12 gauge would be my first choice in most situations with one of the handguns as backup or everything available If I'm locked in my bedroom with my family and the bad guy(s) kicking the door down. I decided to keep my handguns all loaded to avoid the chances of grabbing an unloaded one in a panic. I've considered a seperate pistol vault for one handgun but still think the 12 gauge is the best defensive weapon and so accessing my gun cabinet is best for me. I'm sure not everyone will agree, but this is what I think works best for me and the layout of my house.

Outside of the house the best weapon is going to be the one I have with me or my "Swiss Army Knife":) If I'm in the wilds then it will be my 44 mag and if my outdoor adventures have me in a hotel or whatever then my 44 mag will be by the bed or with me in my truck during the day. When travelling taking more than one gun is usually a pain in the butt as it necessitates one gun being left somewhere while you pursue your other activities with the risk of it falling into the hands of undesirables.

For most urban style adventures one of my 357 mag or M9 with +P Corbon 9mm is I feel satisfactory if you can shoot well. Just my 2 cents. As said by others shooting not to kill or scaling down your weapons is a fallacy, never get a gun out if you don't intend to use it and as you will only be using it because your life is under threat you have no choice but to shoot to kill otherwise you will certainly end up injured or dead yourself and unecessarily risk the lives of your loved ones.

Regarding fear of prosecution for excessive force using 44 mag, I don't know how real that really is but it is a secondary consideration, fight one battle at a time. I would rather go to jail or lose all my material wealth to a civil suit than risk my demise followed by my wife being raped or killed or both, or my children suffering a similar fate. Just my 2 cents
 
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Could someone explain to me how it comes about that the same group that talks about how "all handguns suck," that even the vaunted twelve guage isn't a death ray, and that what a handgun is for is to fight one's way back to the rifle in the trunk; why do all these same people run scared at the thought of using a handgun that might not suck? I've never understood this.

~~~Mat
 
Could someone explain to me how it comes about that the same group that talks about how "all handguns suck," that even the vaunted twelve guage isn't a death ray, and that what a handgun is for is to fight one's way back to the rifle in the trunk; why do all these same people run scared at the thought of using a handgun that might not suck? I've never understood this.
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Because you run into a point of diminishing terminal ballistic gains and increasing shootability problems at power levels above that of the usual duty calibers?
 
Mat-

I'm one of the "All handguns suck" people. Because it's true. It IS to fight my way back to my rifle or shotgun. The .44 Magnum is not a defensive pistol cartridge, it's a hunting cartridge. What has been determined by every agency that ever considered it for general use, is that it's POSSIBLE to learn to use it quickly and effectively, but not by everyone. Furthermore, if you can learn to control a .44 shooting rapidly and accurately, if you put it down, and pick up a .357 and use it instead, you will be much better. A .44 is more than most people can learn to shoot comfortably. It isn't better if you can't hit with it, and most people can't. If this weren't true, many law enforcement agencies would have issued them. They didn't.

I know guys who can use a .44 effectively. I'm not one of them. Maybe if I had a heavy 4" 629 with a non-fluted cylinder, and 1000 rounds to train with, I would be comfortable carrying it, but I think using the same time and money would be more effective training with my 1911, rifle, and shotgun. Carrying any gun you're not proficient with is a bad idea. If you can really use one well, go ahead and carry it. (If you think it's easy, try re-enacting Harry's shoot-off competition scene from Magnum Force, with a 6" model 29 and Corbon defensive loads, and if you still feel like shooting afterward, go right ahead and carry it.)

It wouldn't really be the size that would prevent me from carrying one. I'm always telling people that comfort is relative, and you should carry what you shoot best regardless of size. Still not a substitute for a rifle or shotgun.
 
variety is the spice of life

"Magnum" is a marketing term, intended to gather interest for rounds intended primarily for hunting.

As you know by now, there are many moderate loadings available for self defense usage in the "44 magnum" category that range from mild 44 Specials to those not in the hunting energy level, but perhaps approaching or exceeding the 45 Super rounds; and certainly out of any standard 44 mag. pistol -controlable. At least, relatively, to the magnum cartridges mentioned.

Try 'em, you might just like 'em.
 
Highland, no im not yelling, is that all you can add to this post? I am not up on all this computer stuff so forgive me, just put in my thoughts on the 44 mag, if you need to discuss this further pm me please! and we will talk Csa
 
i dont know, my desert eagle is a .44mag... but i dont think i would grab that thing if someone came into my threshold, prob have a shot gun..... however if their was someone outside my house and i just wanted to scare them, then i might touch off a round with the desert in the air :what:. Other then that not practical at all.
 
Does anyone know why when the 44 mag was introduced the standard was a 240 grain at 1570 fps where as now it is more like 1180 fps if you look at the off the shelf factory ammo. I've read alot of articles which all contain the same info about Elmer Keith etc. but have never seen anything covering this change.

Back to the original question of 44 mag for self defense there's a huge difference between 1180 fps and 1570 fps if we are looking at over penetration.
 
Is it a practical self defense caliber? I don't really think it is, but that being said:

IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE HANDLING THE WEAPON IN QUESTION, then it is a practical self defense weapon.

Other than that, I'd recommend using .44 specials for self defense against human predators. It was actually a pretty common law enforcement round west of the Mississippi before autoloaders caught on.

If you already have a .44 magnum revolver, have practiced on it, are comfortable handling it, and are confident in its capabilities, then it IS the practical self defense weapon for you. Especially if you don't want to spend another few hundred dollars on another weapon that you're going to have to practice on, get comfortable with, and gain confidence in its capabilities.

Use the hardware that matches your software.
 
its actual shooting statistics aren't really that dazzling - at least according to Sanow's numbers
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This may have been mentioned, I didn't read all of the posts.

The .44mag from a 7.5in bbl. will shoot through a 1964 chevy impala, from trunk lock to hood latch, (I have seen it done), I can imagine that a bad guy, if shot with one at defence range, would have a .430 hole in him and it would have been so fast that he may survive for a while, hence the reason that "sanow's" numbers are low.
 
It comes down to comfort level.
I know many people who find firing a .357 highly objectionable, and wont even touch a .44.
While growing up I heard tales of .44s fracturing bones, tearing muscles, and the pistols hitting the shooters in the forehead.
Now, those of us who actually have fired .44 magnums... and especially those of us who enjoy firing them, know that these were just tall tales.
However this "mystique" still surrounds these pistols.
I can shoot a normal, not a scadium, .44 magnum comparable with my friends who have .357 wheelguns.
Then again I have put in many hours and rounds in at the range with it.
But I feel that is key no matter what you shoot.
My wife learned to shoot with a S&W 629, I know... the exact opposite of how people are told to learn, however she will spend all day at the range with her GP100 and heavy .357 loads now.
If you can handle a heavier recoiling gun, and train with it... then it is a viable option.
If you are going to pick up one and just carry it around, then dont expect to do well with it when the chips are down.
I know people who buy a pistol, fire a cylinder of ammo thru it... and then carry it. Never to fire it again unless something happens.
Personally, I find this a terrible idea no matter what the pistol you are carrying is.


Jim
 
I occasionally carry my 6 inch Model 29, and I often use it for a nighstand gun. My preferred load is the 200 grain .44 Magnum Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel. Ballistically, it is the equivalent of the 200 grain .45 ACP +P, and with a trusted, bonded bullet. I feel very comfortable with the revolver and a few reloads.

For the guy thinking of a 250 bullet at 1100 fps, I shoot that type load very often. I pour a 250 grain Keith LSWC over enough Universal Clays to give 1150 fps out of my 29 and use it for my hunting load. A velocity of 1100 fps is far more than what you will need to provide adequate penetration with that bullet. Elmer Keith used that bullet from a .44 Magnum 4 inch and drove it completely through the chest cavity of an elk at over 600 yards. You could probably fully penetrate no less than 2 good-size bad guys at 1100 fps. If I were required to use that bullet for self defense (I wouldn't be upset) I would look for a load sending it about 850-900 fps, for what would essentially be the same performance with a good deal less recoil.
 
Good choice on the Speer short barrel, my choice load is the Blazer Gold Dot in .44 special. VERY similar load.
I have full confidence in it.


Jim
 
I hunt deer with my .44 mag. Redhawk and Ruger .44 carbine, using max power reloads.

But I also load .44 "parlor loads" for practice shooting and self defense. These loads are above .44 Special level, but are mild enough to allow me to use the caliber for home self defense.

Not for concealed carry, but for in-the-house defense if that need arises.
 
I think the .44 can be an excellent defense round with the right ammo, like ww silvertips or something along those lines. The key is to practice, practice, practice and when your done go practice some more. That goes for any caliber.
Also presentation has a big phsycological effect and the sight of a large bore pointed at your aggressor works wonders in that area. statistically, more assults have been stopped by the mere presentaion of a weapon than any other thing except for being alert in the first place.
 
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