Is a case gage necessary?

[gamestalker]

I don't use a 1/8, 1/4 turn mentality though. With well fire formed brass, I set my resizing dies up to maintain that shoulder height. I simply don't see how that can go wrong, and it has yet to, in more than 30 yrs.. As for other dimensional properties, all those can be measured, and logged to produce repeatable results, without the use of conventional case gauges.

I edited this post because I wasn't certain I drove my point completely home. What I was implying is, you can't expect an accurate, or proper brass to chamber fit by adjusting the dies by using the half baked mentality of a kiss, 1/8, 1/4 turn, ect.. To properly adjust a die, it requires knowing how much shoulder and body resizing is needed, and is being accomplished, in order to obtain a proper brass to chamber fit.

I'm certain one can accomplish this process by using a conventional case gauge, I have personally accomplished it through other means of gauging my brass to chamber fit. I've used feeler gauges between the case head and the bolt face to ascertain just how much head space is present with both once fired brass, and with snug fitting well formed brass to create a true baseline for that chamber.

The concept and physics involved in resizing brass to proper dimensions is so basic, that I never really thought much about it, but instead devised various methods to obtain repeatable results. The reality of it, is it really isn't rocket science, it is a very simple aspect of reloading to monitor and control.

Once I have acquired the necessary hardware, cables or what ever I may need to post pictures, I will share some of the above methods as described above, and more. Better yet, hopefully I will be able to show in detail how I have managed without conventional case gauges with improvised tools and methods.

So bottom line is, it necessary to gauge the brass to chamber fit, and die adjustment, but it doesn't require purchasing expensive gauges, IMO.

GS

 

[GLShooter]

I use the Hornady headspace gauges for set up and consistency. I am shooting mostly wildcats so case gauges aren't out there for each chamber. I'm not loading generic cannon fodder for six same cartridge rifles. Every rifle I have has a specifically developed load rendering the drop in gauge uneeded for my usage. I know lots of guys that use them and depend on them.I just have not had issues doing without. YMMV

Greg

 

[Potatohead]

I don't use a 1/8, 1/4 turn mentality though.

+1

.

 

[Walkalong]

There are multiple ways to make sure you are not pushing the shoulders back too far when sizing, and case gauges are a good way to do this, assuming your rifles chamber is in spec.

The die makers do a great job of ensuring that if you adjust the sizer down to touch the shell holder or plate, it will generally make safe ammo, but there is no way for it to be just right every time simply because of manufacturing tolerances in both chambers, sizing dies, and shell holders/plates.

Like many here I loaded rifle cases without using case gauges, or anything else, to set up sizers for some years before I starting looking at things more closely.

I now have a Wilson case gauge for .223, .300 BLK, and .30-06, because those are calibers I load that will be shot in a semi auto firearm. I also have one for .308, even though I am only shooting .308 in a bolt gun. It is a good double check to see what I am doing with my brass and my chamber. As posted here numerous times the Wilson checks the headspace aspect but not the diameter of the case, so if you are looking to gauge a loaded round to see if it should chamber in any properly made chamber, the Sheridan or JP gauges are a better fit for you.

When setting up the sizer to make the brass fit the Wilson .223 gauge I am getting good case life with no signs of incipient case head separation before the primer pockets loosen up. At 8 to 12 firings per case I am happy with that. No jammed up ARs is a good thing. (If you have a tight bodied chamber a different gauge may be a better fit for you.)

Prior to buying a Wilson gauge for 300 BLK I was using a little home made "gauge" to set the sizer.

I did this by measuring the shoulder position on new brass, fired brass, and of course on my sized brass. I set the sizer up to move the shoulder .002 to .003 with my fired brass.

Then I bought a Wilson gauge for the 300 BLK, and was gratified to find out my cases passed the gauge.

I also use two more home made gauges to set up the sizers for my two lever guns, a .30-30 and a .35 Remington.
Here is the one for .35 Rem.

There are many ways to check shoulder position, and case gauges are one way to do it. Are they absolutely necessary? No, we can get by without them, but they sure are nice to have, and I will never go back to just sizing by screwing down the sizer all the way, or sizing until my bolt gun will crush fit the brass.

 

[HOWARD J]

@jcwit
New 30 carbine cases are hard to come by even if you purchase loaded brass.
I have used a lot of used brass---have no ides how many times they have been fired--I resize 2-300 at a time
With my old age I may toss a case that needs to be cut back to safe dimensions in the wrong bucket--loaded as is could cause a open bolt firing
So I don't have a proper case gage( no Co. makes one) so I use my 30 carbine Ruger pistol I rotate the cylinder--if it won't go in or the cylinder jambs the brass needs fixing
CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?

BTW: some of the brass I use is from WW2

 

[Potatohead]

Using the gauge like in Walkalongs first picture, where do you guys want your sized product to fit in the gauge, near the lower step, in the middle, or close to the upper step? Is their a "best" there, or is this an "it depends" question?

 

[FLIGHT762]

For my autoloaders, pump and lever guns, I will set the F/L die to size near flush at the Lower step of the Wilson gauge to insure 100% functioning / chambering. For a bolt gun, depending on the tightness of the chamber, you can adjust the F/L die to size where the cases chamber easily. This can be anywhere in the step, it will likely be near the middle.

This is why I like a gauge like the Hornady, since I attach it to the jaw of a caliper and I can read the exact number where the brass will not chamber. As an example, I know in a certain rifle, a reading over 1.614" will not chamber. I then set my die (or use a set of Redding Competition shell holders) to shoulder bump my cases to 1.612". It' good the see the exact numbers rather than feeling the cases in a drop in case gauge. I do use both.

 

[cfullgraf]

Using the gauge like in Walkalongs first picture, where do you guys want your sized product to fit in the gauge, near the lower step, in the middle, or close to the upper step? Is their a "best" there, or is this an "it depends" question?

Well, my fingers and eyes are not calibrated enough to be able to tell where in the acceptable rang of the gauge the case is.

I use the case gauge to make sure the case is in spec and that is only when setting up the die.

If I want to know how far back I am pushing the shoulder back, I use a Sinclair Bump gauge. The Hornady L-N-L gauge or the RCBS precision Mic do the same thing.

For case length, I measure with a caliper. Actually, I have a caliper like "go-no-go" gauge. If the case does not fit the gauge, it gets trimmed. The case gauge would do this as well but is a little time inefficient when compared to using my home made gauges.

See the gauge here.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=176745&d=1356698727

Remember, the commonly available case gauges such as the Dillon and L E Wilson, do not measure anything but shoulder position and overall case length. Body diameter is not measured.

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks for your answers.

 

[Reloadron]

Using the gauge like in Walkalongs first picture, where do you guys want your sized product to fit in the gauge, near the lower step, in the middle, or close to the upper step? Is their a "best" there, or is this an "it depends" question?

I would say it depends. Depends on the rifle and chamber you are loading for but for general use the lower step.

Here is my thinking on this. The lower step is the nominal cartridge headspace. Looking at the 308 Winchester SAAMI cartridge and chamber dimensions.

A typical Go gauge for 308 Winchester is a 1.630" gauge. The NoGo point is 1.634" and finally the Field Gauge is 1.638". Now looking at the linked drawing the cartridge headspace is (Maximum Dimensions) 1.634" - .007".

Using a set of 3 chamber gauges (Go-NoGo-Field) and placing them in a Forrester case gauge the 1.630" gauge sits flush with the lower step. That tells me the lower step is 1.630". The NoGo gauge sits flush with the upper step telling me the upper step is 1.634". The final and last field gauge which is a known 1.638" sits above the upper step. Pretty much as would be expected.

So what to do? I have several 308 bolt guns with two I shoot more than the others. My bolt gun is a chamber headspace of 1.631" and my M1A comes in right at 1.632". If I am loading 308 using one of several sets of 308 dies I know where to set my dies. Rather than screw with a difference between chambers of .001" which is a waste I just load my 308 for both rifles at a nominal 1.630". Now if I just bought off on rounds loaded to the upper step they would be 1.634' and I will guarantee you that few thousandths will be noticeable.

If I load all my 308 to the SAAMI spec of 1.630" they will or should chamber in any chamber cut to SAAMI specifications. If I load them to 1.634" they may or may not depending on the chamber. The same is true of eor example 223 Remington cases obviously with different numbers.

All of this would not be true of cases like the 30 Carbine or other straight wall rifle cases or belted magnum type cases. Also wouldn't be true of cases like the 303 British which headspace off the rim.

Anyway, for bottle neck cases like the 223, 308 and others that headspace off a datum point on the shoulder the above is why I use the lower step.

Ron

 

[jcwit]

@jcwit
New 30 carbine cases are hard to come by even if you purchase loaded brass.
I have used a lot of used brass---have no ides how many times they have been fired--I resize 2-300 at a time
With my old age I may toss a case that needs to be cut back to safe dimensions in the wrong bucket--loaded as is could cause a open bolt firing
So I don't have a proper case gage( no Co. makes one) so I use my 30 carbine Ruger pistol I rotate the cylinder--if it won't go in or the cylinder jambs the brass needs fixing
CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?

Absolutely. Full explanation and makes total sense. I may look into making a case gauge. Thanks for the reply. BTW, yes I can live with that.

 

[gonoles_1980]

I use it for my wife's 9mm, easier than removing the barrel. I've already compared with the barrel. Anything that fits the gauge will fit the barrel, to include those that barely don't fit. I use it before priming, and then after crimping. I found I eliminating 99% of the issues on the first measure.

 

[FLIGHT762]

All of this would not be true of cases like the 30 Carbine or other straight wall rifle cases or belted magnum type cases.

Actually, it is a good idea to headspace / measure off of the shoulder of a Belted magnum once it's fired in your rifle's chamber rather than headspace off of the belt. I do that with three belted Magnums I reload for (300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby Mag and 7MM Rem. Mag.) and I get good case life doing so.

The only two Belted Magnums you might have difficulty headspacing off of the shoulder is the 300 and 375 H&H Magnums due to their sloped shoulders.

 

[arizona98tj]

I prefer to not work my brass excessively when resizing so I use a Hornady Headspace Comparator. Case gauges are all nice and fine but I find the comparator to be much easier to use when I resize MY brass for MY chamber.

My 6.5 Grendel AR has a long chamber. If I used the Wilson case gauge (yes, I have one for the 6.5G), it would unnecessarily bump the shoulder back .010". Doing that simply work hardens the brass and makes for shortened brass life which means spending money when its not needed. Why do that? I set up my resizing die to bump the shoulder back about .003" which is all that is needed for my Grendel. Easy to measure and verify using the comparator.

 

[gamestalker]

If one is loading cartridges to be used in multiple chambers, finding a standard between them that will chamber and function reliably is certainly doable. However, it should also be known that by loading to such loose standards, as I consider it, will most definitely result in a shortened life span of the brass, and even a likely hood of experiencing premature case head separations, even as soon as the 2nd or third reloading.

As for belted magnums, they head space off the shoulder just like any other bottle neck case after the initial firing. In fact, if any cartridge is any more prone to case head separations, it would be the belted magnums due much to the fact they often have more excessive head space as new or unfired factory brass than bottle necks made to initially head space off the shoulder.

GS

 

[Louca]

Great advice for the OP in posts above. One thing I will add that I did not see mentioned is that a gauge can help detect problems with reloading equipment other than simple miss-adjustments.

For my .45 ACP rounds, my case gauge indicated a problem I had (and might still have) on station 2 of my Dillon Square Deal press. The finished round would work fine in my Colt 1911, but would not chamber as well in my HK 45C.

Some recommended just doing the plunk test in a barrel. Well, that might be OK if your shooting only one firearm. But when you have more than one, it is sort of a hassle to take them apart and use multiple barrels to test the rounds. For me, not having that hassle was worth the small cost of a gauge. If it passes the gauge, it works in all of them.

Once I started shooting competition, I bought them to gauge completed rounds. In my casual shooting a malfunction every now and then was ok, I only had to loose one match due to a malfunction to change my thinking.

Exactly my story, too. All it took was one malfunction at an IDPA shoot to convince me to start checking stuff. It basically comes down to how serious you want to be about things.

Lou

 

[USSR]

Quote:
@jcwit
New 30 carbine cases are hard to come by even if you purchase loaded brass.
I have used a lot of used brass---have no ides how many times they have been fired--I resize 2-300 at a time
With my old age I may toss a case that needs to be cut back to safe dimensions in the wrong bucket--loaded as is could cause a open bolt firing
So I don't have a proper case gage( no Co. makes one) so I use my 30 carbine Ruger pistol I rotate the cylinder--if it won't go in or the cylinder jambs the brass needs fixing
CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?

Absolutely. Full explanation and makes total sense. I may look into making a case gauge. Thanks for the reply. BTW, yes I can live with that.

jcwit,

If you do end up making a case gauge for the .30 Carbine, please make another one and I will buy it off you. Would really help in properly setting up my separate taper crimp die.

Don

 

[tcoz]

Based on the great responses to my original question, I've decided to take the couple of extra seconds and drop every sized case into the gauge. Within the first 50, I already found one that didn't (and won't) size properly.

I'm loading .223 for my sons and my AR's using mostly our own previously fired brass, but I've also had a couple non-reloaders at the range give me their brass so all things considered, I full-length size every case even though I know it shortens the life.

Thanks again for the info. I'm going to start another thread regarding a trim, chamfer, deburr question that I have.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Sometimes, a bottle neck case that won't drop completely into a Wilson type of case gauge might be sized properly, but the rim is bent slightly and won't drop all the way into the gauge. I've had it happen a number of times and checking the case with a Hornady gauge confirmed the case was sized properly, only the bent rim didn't allow the case to drop in.

Every once in a while, you can get an odd case that just won't resize properly.

 

[tcoz]

Sometimes, a bottle neck case that won't drop completely into a Wilson type of case gauge might be sized properly, but the rim is bent slightly and won't drop all the way into the gauge. I've had it happen a number of times and checking the case with a Hornady gauge confirmed the case was sized properly, only the bent rim didn't allow the case to drop in.

Every once in a while, you can get an odd case that just won't resize properly.

I use a Lyman gauge and that thought occurred to me so my first two steps are always to run a neck brush through and place the cases head up in a reloading tray so I can inspect the head for bends, gouges, misshapen primers etc, then i do my real case inspection after sizing.

 

[Constrictor]

ive never used one in 30 years of loading.

 

[angus6]

I prefer to not work my brass excessively when resizing so I use a Hornady Headspace Comparator. Case gauges are all nice and fine but I find the comparator to be much easier to use when I resize MY brass for MY chamber.

My 6.5 Grendel AR has a long chamber. If I used the Wilson case gauge (yes, I have one for the 6.5G), it would unnecessarily bump the shoulder back .010". Doing that simply work hardens the brass and makes for shortened brass life which means spending money when its not needed. Why do that? I set up my resizing die to bump the shoulder back about .003" which is all that is needed for my Grendel. Easy to measure and verify using the comparator.

Great tool , after picking one up I've quit using my drop in gauges plus quite a few of my calibers they don't make drop ins for.

OP EGW makes multi hole gauges to save time

 

[Potatohead]

Thanks for your answer Ron and fellas. Some of this is still flying a bit over my head. Still waiting for my "Ohhh, thats what they meant" moment on some of it.

 

[GLOOB]

Your own brass is always going to size correctly, as long as you don't mess with your die setting.

I use the case gauge on random pickups. These guys may be stretched. They may not size correctly and/or they may be damaged goods even if they did.

If a case is more than a hair over max, I toss it. I don't care if it will size correctly, anymore. It is likely to separate at some point, causing a jam. I don't want that in my brass supply.

 

[tcoz]

I use the case gauge on random pickups. These guys may be stretched. They may not size correctly and/or they may be damaged goods even if they did.

That's pretty much what I discovered. I had four cases that wouldn't size out of my first 100. They were all range pickup AND they were all military 5.56 brass. Coincidence?