Braz
Member
PC terminology? Here?? 
Is a firearm a weapon? no.....
- Thread starter ball3006
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Ok, one more time... IT'S NOT TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT. Got it? The media uses language against the gun community all the time, so it does create perception, regardless of how much we pretend it doesn't. How many of us are aggravated when we hear the term "assault weapon" for any kind of rifle? But I digress...
To piggyback on what fastbolt said, when teaching a brand new shooter, we want them to be as comfortable as possible. Most of them are intimidated by guns to begin with. This is why I spend a good portion of my class showing them the various parts of a gun, taking it apart, explaining in mechanical terms how the gun works, how the ammunition is constructed, and anything else to take the mystery out of it. I want that person looking at a gun as just a little metal machine that they can control and not something to be intimidated by.
To this end, I also want to use *language* that decreases the new student's anxiety, and not increases it. The word "weapon" is one such word to avoid.
I think it's along the same lines as drawing the distinction between "shooting to kill" and "shooting to stop the threat". There is an important distinction to be made there, and language IS important.
I'd rather have a new shooter focused on the mechanics of the firearm and thinking of it in "neutral" terms rather than have them thinking "weapon", which brings preconceived ideas, bias, and emotion along with it. It makes them more at ease, which makes them learn quicker, and in my world, that's a good thing.
YMMV, as always.
Shoeless
To piggyback on what fastbolt said, when teaching a brand new shooter, we want them to be as comfortable as possible. Most of them are intimidated by guns to begin with. This is why I spend a good portion of my class showing them the various parts of a gun, taking it apart, explaining in mechanical terms how the gun works, how the ammunition is constructed, and anything else to take the mystery out of it. I want that person looking at a gun as just a little metal machine that they can control and not something to be intimidated by.
To this end, I also want to use *language* that decreases the new student's anxiety, and not increases it. The word "weapon" is one such word to avoid.
I think it's along the same lines as drawing the distinction between "shooting to kill" and "shooting to stop the threat". There is an important distinction to be made there, and language IS important.
I'd rather have a new shooter focused on the mechanics of the firearm and thinking of it in "neutral" terms rather than have them thinking "weapon", which brings preconceived ideas, bias, and emotion along with it. It makes them more at ease, which makes them learn quicker, and in my world, that's a good thing.
YMMV, as always.
Shoeless
Edward429451
member
Hmmm,
How many legs does a cow have? (four).
Now suppose we call the cows tail a leg, now how many legs does the cow have? (five?)
Wrong. four. Calling a cows tail a leg does not make it a leg, it's still a tail.
Guns are weapons no matter how you stack it. We could call a weapon a toy and it may loosely be during peace time in a practical sense but it IS still a weapon. Very dangerous.
To downplay the dangerousness of a weapon to a new shooter is doing said new shooter a disservice. Some very fine and experianced shooters have injured themselves or worse by forgetting this for even a split second.
We dont teach new drivers that cars are 'bumper-cars', so why confuse and downplay guns to people?
Guns are fun. But the minute you stop respecting it, it bites you. This is a fact of life on this dirtball. Don't teach people that coral snakes are really king snakes just because they're intimidated. Intimidation generates respect and respect keeps people in one piece. If the new shooter can't handle that, maybe they should get an airsoft and watch reruns of the A Team instead.
Don't cloud the safety issue with semantics. JMO.
How many legs does a cow have? (four).
Now suppose we call the cows tail a leg, now how many legs does the cow have? (five?)
Wrong. four. Calling a cows tail a leg does not make it a leg, it's still a tail.
Guns are weapons no matter how you stack it. We could call a weapon a toy and it may loosely be during peace time in a practical sense but it IS still a weapon. Very dangerous.
To downplay the dangerousness of a weapon to a new shooter is doing said new shooter a disservice. Some very fine and experianced shooters have injured themselves or worse by forgetting this for even a split second.
We dont teach new drivers that cars are 'bumper-cars', so why confuse and downplay guns to people?
Guns are fun. But the minute you stop respecting it, it bites you. This is a fact of life on this dirtball. Don't teach people that coral snakes are really king snakes just because they're intimidated. Intimidation generates respect and respect keeps people in one piece. If the new shooter can't handle that, maybe they should get an airsoft and watch reruns of the A Team instead.
Don't cloud the safety issue with semantics. JMO.
Nobody said anything about downplaying it. Nobody said anything about not respecting it. It's purely language, which, IMO, is important. As I said, YMMV. You call it what you will, but I'll not refer to it as a weapon with my students or those coming to the range for practice.
Shoeless
Shoeless
Tamara
Senior Member
El Tejon,
Yes, my Ruger Bearcat was obviously intended as a defense against tyranny... ...by three-quarter-scale injuns and banditos.
Yes, my Ruger Bearcat was obviously intended as a defense against tyranny... ...by three-quarter-scale injuns and banditos.
Tamara
Senior Member
Edward429451,
Does this mean I should refer to my ball python as a "weapon" when letting visitors handle it? Are table saws or motorcycles weapons? I mean, both will maim or kill you if you don't treat them with respect.
Does Chipper Jones call his Louisville Slugger a weapon? I mean, after all, clubs were designed to kill; who cares if it's currently being used for "sporting purposes".
Does this mean I should refer to my ball python as a "weapon" when letting visitors handle it? Are table saws or motorcycles weapons? I mean, both will maim or kill you if you don't treat them with respect.
Does Chipper Jones call his Louisville Slugger a weapon? I mean, after all, clubs were designed to kill; who cares if it's currently being used for "sporting purposes".
benewton
Member
I'm afraid that an event occuring, to me at least, somewhere around 30 years ago set the agenda on this...
I spent two weeks of basic carrying bricks in my front pants pockets, and, to this day, you won't see me with my hands in my pockets unless working something in or out.
Same thing with hats indoors.
And, having observed, but not having had to perform, the DI forced rifle/gun demo, I'm afraid that this class of tools will either be called by their specific name, or, as a generic, a weapon.
Given that it was only a few years over the course of a much longer life, I sometimes wonder why that
bull still remains embedded...
Ah well, I've never been PC, and they tell me the first fifty are the hard ones, so I'm waiting to see what shows up next in the area of wierd trivia.
I spent two weeks of basic carrying bricks in my front pants pockets, and, to this day, you won't see me with my hands in my pockets unless working something in or out.
Same thing with hats indoors.
And, having observed, but not having had to perform, the DI forced rifle/gun demo, I'm afraid that this class of tools will either be called by their specific name, or, as a generic, a weapon.
Given that it was only a few years over the course of a much longer life, I sometimes wonder why that
bull still remains embedded...
Ah well, I've never been PC, and they tell me the first fifty are the hard ones, so I'm waiting to see what shows up next in the area of wierd trivia.
Tamara
Senior Member
benewton,
I ain't being PC.
I have plenty of weapons, but then again, I also have some toys that shoot bullets. They could be dangerous if mishandled, but so could a fireplace poker.
It's the whole "guns were designed to kill people" thing that sets my teeth on edge. Swords were designed to stab people, too, yet fencing foils have blunt tips. Go figure.
If a Ruger Bearcat or an Anschutz 2013 were designed to kill people, their designers weren't really grasping the concept well.
I ain't being PC.
I have plenty of weapons, but then again, I also have some toys that shoot bullets. They could be dangerous if mishandled, but so could a fireplace poker.
It's the whole "guns were designed to kill people" thing that sets my teeth on edge. Swords were designed to stab people, too, yet fencing foils have blunt tips. Go figure.
If a Ruger Bearcat or an Anschutz 2013 were designed to kill people, their designers weren't really grasping the concept well.
Chris Rhines
Member
Ah, but if (for some reason) I'm pressed into using my Anschutz 1701 to bust caps in a horde of Commie Mutant Biker Ninjas, is it still not a weapon?
Or if I have to pummel one of the CMBNs to death with my french press*, is my french press a weapon?
My take is that a weapon is some object that is being used as "an instrument of attack or defense."
- Chris
* - Should that be "freedom press?"
Tamara
Senior Member
Chris,
You are obviously correct. Should you be forced to subdue said CMBN's with papercuts, then that sheet of Great White Recycled Typing Paper is now a weapon.
Of course, when it comes to the CMBN's, I'd rather use a weapon that was designed for killing, like a Garand or a Glock, than a dangerous toy, like a single-shot .22LR.
You are obviously correct. Should you be forced to subdue said CMBN's with papercuts, then that sheet of Great White Recycled Typing Paper is now a weapon.
Of course, when it comes to the CMBN's, I'd rather use a weapon that was designed for killing, like a Garand or a Glock, than a dangerous toy, like a single-shot .22LR.
Chris Rhines
Member
Tamara - You and me both.
- Chris
- Chris
Wow, talk about stirring the pot....
as far as PC goes, I have been calling firearms, guns, pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc since the 50's, long before PC came into being. I never heard the term weapon until I went into the air force. There are very few PC bones in my body because SHMBO says so. If I install the bayonets on my milsurps would it then be a "super weapon? I have stabbed many people with the pud below my navel but never with a bayonet, so which is the weapon.....chris3
as far as PC goes, I have been calling firearms, guns, pistols, rifles, shotguns, etc since the 50's, long before PC came into being. I never heard the term weapon until I went into the air force. There are very few PC bones in my body because SHMBO says so. If I install the bayonets on my milsurps would it then be a "super weapon? I have stabbed many people with the pud below my navel but never with a bayonet, so which is the weapon.....chris3
cratz2
Member
Shoeless, not to pick on you, and I understand the reasoning behind using certain language under certain circumstances to create a mind set but regardless of word usage, a rose is a rose.
By your defined wording, there is really no such thing as a weapon unless it is in the act of causing harm or destruction to something else. A gun, baseball bat, USMC knife, sword, throwing star etc... not weapons. They aren't weaspons when they're being carried for self defense, they aren't weapons when you are training with them in case you need to use them for self defense, and if you do use them to cause damage, then after the damage is done, they once again cease being weapons. This is the extreme limit of being PC.
A submarine launched missile capable of deploying 6 seperate tactical nuclear warheads is not a weapon. It isn't designed as such and after one levels six small cities, it was not a weapon. Sounds kinda silly when you up the ante, doesn't it?
Since we're all playing semantics here, it's still all about original intent. A Maxim gun is a weapon. A military Colt 1911A1 made in 1943 is a weapon. A M4 carbine is a weapon. A Glock 23 is a weapon. An single shot Anzchutz 22 is not a weapon, a 1,000 air pistol isn't a weapon. Most SVI open class pistols aren't weapons. A O/U shotgun for sporting clays isn't a weapon. (Actually, in a strict sense, these last four examples are still weapons. To be used against paper, steel and clay.)
If, when the firearm was designed and built, it was designed and built for hunting, self defense or military use, it is a weapon as clearly defined in most any dictionary. If it was designed for shooting paper, it isn't a weapon against humans or animals in either the most traditional or modern sense.
I just don't see you anyone can rationalize a handgun, carried on one's person, loaded with bullets designed to inflict the maximum amount damage against soft tissue is not a weapon. Drill instructors and NRA trainers aside, to the common person, it is absolutely a weapon. Before, during and after it's intended use.
Edward429451
member
All I'm sayin is you got to be careful how you talk to newbies. If they unintentionally downplay anything for themselves based on your bad choice of terminology, it could possibly lead to an ND sometime for them. Ever tried to be nice and invite a newbie shooting and the first thing they do is point a gun at you ang giggle? I have. They didn't get invited back.
Philisophically speaking, every object is at the same time a weapon and yet, not a weapon. You could stuff a foam Nerf Ball down someones throat and kill them, or we could 'go have fun' and recreationally shoot weapons.
If I pointed my 'toy' Bearcat at your face, even if you knew it was unloaded, would it still be a toy?
(makes me slightly uncomfortable just saying that, respect for weapons/people etc..)
I agree terminology is important. There's no telling just how far stupidity can run with something that was less than 100% clear. Being less than clear could incite an improper mindset in some people. Teaching newbies to shoot is fun but serious business. Leave nothing to chance with objects which have the potential to hurt you gravely even inadvertantly with no serious intent present. (And don't come at me with a Nerf Ball with serious intent!)
Weaponcraft. Shooting a single shot Anzchutz 22 or Bearcat is not toycraft and shouldn't be depicted as such. The life you save may be you own.
Philisophically speaking, every object is at the same time a weapon and yet, not a weapon. You could stuff a foam Nerf Ball down someones throat and kill them, or we could 'go have fun' and recreationally shoot weapons.
If I pointed my 'toy' Bearcat at your face, even if you knew it was unloaded, would it still be a toy?
(makes me slightly uncomfortable just saying that, respect for weapons/people etc..)
I agree terminology is important. There's no telling just how far stupidity can run with something that was less than 100% clear. Being less than clear could incite an improper mindset in some people. Teaching newbies to shoot is fun but serious business. Leave nothing to chance with objects which have the potential to hurt you gravely even inadvertantly with no serious intent present. (And don't come at me with a Nerf Ball with serious intent!)
Weaponcraft. Shooting a single shot Anzchutz 22 or Bearcat is not toycraft and shouldn't be depicted as such. The life you save may be you own.
PerfectGlock
Member
None of my firearms are weapons, unless someone decides it's a good idea to bust in my house. They come in looking for money, they get dragged out filled with lead.
What I don't get is the phrase "Target Weapon". Those dastardly paper killers!
What I don't get is the phrase "Target Weapon". Those dastardly paper killers!
Stevie-Ray
Member
As I see it, now that you bring it up. Hmmmm.......
4 bought for defense, CCW=weapons.
2 bought for hunting=weapons.
8 bought as pin shooters, paperpunchers, silhouette tools and cheap entertainment=fun adult toys.
1=heirloom.
Never thought of it that way. I've always considered all my guns weapons, but maybe I have only 6. But mine is also a good argument for the buying of guns for reasons other than killing.
4 bought for defense, CCW=weapons.
2 bought for hunting=weapons.
8 bought as pin shooters, paperpunchers, silhouette tools and cheap entertainment=fun adult toys.
1=heirloom.
Never thought of it that way. I've always considered all my guns weapons, but maybe I have only 6. But mine is also a good argument for the buying of guns for reasons other than killing.
The fire extinguisher in my kitchen is a fire extinguisher, whether or not I ever use it to extinguish a fire.
Or is it?
pax
We are getting into semantics again. If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted. -- H. R. Haldeman, testifying in his own defense
Or is it?
pax
We are getting into semantics again. If we use words, there is a very grave danger they will be misinterpreted. -- H. R. Haldeman, testifying in his own defense
Edward429451
member
OK then, tools of the trade. (the trade is weaponcraft.).
BTW, maybe I missed it but if you don't call them weapons to your students, what terminology do you use?
BTW, maybe I missed it but if you don't call them weapons to your students, what terminology do you use?
Rembrandt
Member
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A firearm only becomes a weapon when used in an offensive or defensive manner.
That's why the term "weapon" is ingrained into those who serve in the military and law enforcement...because that's how they use firearms. As an NRA firearm instructor we never use the "W" word unless it's in a offensive or defensive context.
Mrs Rembrandt cooks a lot of meals in the cast iron skillet....but when she starts chasing me through the house with it...well, it becomes a "Weapon"....
That's why the term "weapon" is ingrained into those who serve in the military and law enforcement...because that's how they use firearms. As an NRA firearm instructor we never use the "W" word unless it's in a offensive or defensive context.
Mrs Rembrandt cooks a lot of meals in the cast iron skillet....but when she starts chasing me through the house with it...well, it becomes a "Weapon"....
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
All my weapons are tools. Weapons are a subset of tools.
Some tools have more than one use or can be put to more than one use,i.e, improvisation. My blacksmith hammers can crush a skull very handily. On the other hand using my pistols and revolvers as a hammer will work after a fashion but it will damage a valuable weapon.
My 400 year old katana is an obsolete weapon. Tameshegiri is cutting a target. It is practice in the use of this weapon.
Shooting paper targets is practice for the use of my weapon as a weapon. It also can be a sport by those who have no intention of using their weapon as a weapon. Their intent does not change the true purpose of their weapon.
Some of my firearms have primary purposes that are not intended as offensive or defensive weapons against humans. However, if I have it in my hands when the time comes I will use it as such.
Robert Heinlein once stated that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon...there are only dangerous humans. He went on to say that such humans are dangerous even with two legs and one arm blown off. True words...
Some tools have more than one use or can be put to more than one use,i.e, improvisation. My blacksmith hammers can crush a skull very handily. On the other hand using my pistols and revolvers as a hammer will work after a fashion but it will damage a valuable weapon.
My 400 year old katana is an obsolete weapon. Tameshegiri is cutting a target. It is practice in the use of this weapon.
Shooting paper targets is practice for the use of my weapon as a weapon. It also can be a sport by those who have no intention of using their weapon as a weapon. Their intent does not change the true purpose of their weapon.
Some of my firearms have primary purposes that are not intended as offensive or defensive weapons against humans. However, if I have it in my hands when the time comes I will use it as such.
Robert Heinlein once stated that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon...there are only dangerous humans. He went on to say that such humans are dangerous even with two legs and one arm blown off. True words...
TearsOfRage
Member
Not all guns are weapons, but most of mine are.
The .22s are mostly sporting goods, but they would become a weapon if I needed them to, just like a crowbar or hammer.
The .22s are mostly sporting goods, but they would become a weapon if I needed them to, just like a crowbar or hammer.
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