Is Congress "linguistically handicapped" or is there something else in play?

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alan

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Supreme Court to consider whether a felon in Japan is a felon in U.S.
Westmoreland County man appeals conviction for possessing a firearm
Thursday, November 04, 2004

By Michael McGough, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

WASHINGTON -- A lawyer for a Westmoreland County man told the U.S. Supreme Court yesterday that his client's conviction for unlawful possession of a firearm should be set aside because the felony conviction that disqualified him from buying a gun took place in a Japanese court.

Several justices reacted sympathetically to the claim by Pittsburgh attorney Paul D. Boas that when Congress outlawed possession of a gun by individuals "convicted in any court" of a serious crime, it had in mind only American courts -- an intention Boas said could be gleaned by references elsewhere in the law and in predecessor statutes to federal or state convictions.

In 2002, Boas' client, former Edgewood police officer Gary Sherwood Small, pleaded guilty on a conditional basis to being a felon in possession of a firearm. Small had been indicted because of his 1998 purchase of a 9 mm handgun.

Small had answered "no" on a federal form asking if he had ever been convicted "in any court" of a crime punishable by more than a year in prison. In fact, Small had been convicted in 1994 in Okinawa, Japan, of smuggling guns into that country inside a water heater shipped from Pittsburgh, and was sentenced to five years in prison and 18 months of parole.

In offering a conditional guilty plea to the U.S. charge, Small reserved the right to challenge the federal law under which he was indicted.

In 2003, the Philadelphia-based 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against Small, holding that "foreign convictions generally can count as predicate offenses" under the law barring the possession of firearms by felons.

Small got a more sympathetic hearing yesterday from several members of the Supreme Court.

"I think you make a strong argument that Congress didn't think about this problem," Justice John Paul Stevens told Boas.

When Patricia A. Millett, a lawyer in the U.S. solicitor general's office, argued that "any court" included foreign tribunals, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg countered that "we learned in law school that one country can't enforce the criminal judgments of another country," a principle Ginsburg said must have been known to the many lawyers who serve in Congress.

Boas conceded that "there was some sloppy drafting here," but said that if the court viewed the statute as a whole it would agree that "it would be almost absurd" to think Congress intended to count convictions abroad.

Justice Antonin Scalia, who believes in interpreting a law by focusing on its text rather than on Congress' intentions, countered that "the text of the provision supports the government." Scalia added that, when it wanted to, Congress explicitly referred to federal and state courts. That wouldn't be necessary, Scalia said, if "any court" meant "any state or federal court."

The debate over the meaning of the words "any court" -- which sometimes recalled former President Bill Clinton's comment during the Monica Lewinsky scandal that "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is" -- dominated yesterday's argument, but it wasn't the only issue.

Boas suggested that if the United States recognized convictions in Japanese courts, which he said didn't follow American standards of due process, then it might have to recognize foreign convictions for offenses like criticizing a totalitarian government or possessing a Bible in Taliban-era Afghanistan. Boas noted that even Nobel Prize winning author Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who was imprisoned by the Soviet Union, might be unable to buy a gun in America.

Scalia replied that Congress might have been more concerned about keeping guns out of the hands of violent foreigners than about allowing former dissidents to own firearms. "It's tough on Solzhenitsyn that he can't buy a gun," Scalia added, "but he'll get over it."

Boas later said he thought the argument went well and that the justices had recognized that "there are serious problems with the way this statute was written."

Although he was absent yesterday, Chief Justice William Rehnquist has reserved the right to participate in cases argued during his treatment for thyroid cancer. Rehnquist's name was affectionately invoked yesterday by his colleagues, with Scalia prefacing one question by saying: "I'm going to ask a question the chief justice would ask if he were here."

Rehnquist hasn't disclosed which form of thyroid cancer he is suffering from, but descriptions of his treatment have prompted specialists to speculate that he might have been diagnosed with a life-threatening form of the disease. That possibility has fueled speculation that Rehnquist, a Republican appointee, may soon resign from the court, a scenario that gained new adherents yesterday with President Bush's re-election victory.



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(Michael McGough can be reached at [email protected] or 1-202-662-7025.)

Posters Questions: For the significant "value given" aren't we entitled to clearly written legislation?? Re comment from Mr. Justice Stevens, did you ever hear about something or someone "being damned by faint praise"?
 
In my opinion if the crime is a felony in the US as well as the forgien country it should count the same. Now if it is a crime that is considered minor in the US it shouldn't count as a felony conviction.
 
JL2152 wrote:

"In my opinion if the crime is a felony in the US as well as the forgien country it should count the same. Now if it is a crime that is considered minor in the US it shouldn't count as a felony conviction".

Your view point is an interesting one, however you seem to overlook some equally interesting facets or questions. They are as follows.

1. Differences in standards of proof that might exist between U.S. criminal procedure and the criminal proceedure of the other country.
2. Differences between the countries involved respecting rights of the accused.

People learned in the law, I'm not such a person, might well be able to add to the above listing, however the items above are just a couple of things that come quickly to mind.

Might I also add the following. It strikes me that the use of the phrase "convicted in any court", by the U.S. Congress tends to indicate reference to "any U.S. court", as opposed to including foreign courts, for reasons above stated.

It also strikes me that The Congress should speak clearly, something that they seemingly failed to do here.
 
It should be fairly obvious....

If George Soros decides to set up a court and convict ALL of us of something like "failing to own a copy of the Koran", we can kiss the 2A goodbye.... :what:

Stupid law.... :barf:

Which means that it'll stick because the case is about guns.... :cuss:
 
Why do all of the firearm test cases that go before the SCOTUS involve whackos?

It couldn't be that the guy just accidentally got caught in Japan with a single firearm on him for self defense... oh no...we've got a guy that got caught smuggling firearms internationally. :rolleyes:

Doesn't sound like somebody who'll play nice - IMHO he shouldn't be allowed to get a gun here.
 
Justice Antonin Scalia, who believes in interpreting a law by focusing on its text rather than on Congress' intentions

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. "

Well, the text is quite clear, isn't it. Not by the Fed, nor the states, nor any other form of government in the U.S.

Wasn't there an argument about U.S. soldiers being subject to the ICC for "war crimes" subject to the interpretation of foreign standards/courts? Didn't that same Congress reject the ICC?

If so, is the intent not clear enough? If it is still too muddy, shouldn't the existing law be struck down as unconstitutional with the admonition that Congress rewrite the law to be specific? (and all existing cases be tossed)
 
One fundamental problem with recognizing foreign convictions is that a great many countries operate under Napoleanic law -- the accused is guilty upon arrest, and must prove his/her innocence in court. The diammetric opposite of our legal system.

I don't think foreign convictions should count ... period.
 
Hawk:

I posted this someplace else, but do you remember?

I think there's a "board" of some sort that's supposed to handle stuff like this, but it's unfunded, so it doesn't exist....

(I was commenting in regards to that FFL who got nailed for having a couple of loose rounds in the car while entering Mexico.)
 
I think that a bill should be proposed by Congress which appropriates $535 billion a year to pay each of the representatives and senators $1 billion a year if they do not meet together for a quorum.

The country would be better off that way.
 
The conviction rate in Japan is 99%. Anyone think their detectives and prosecutors are just that good?
And I would venture to bet that less than 1% of those are Yakuza. Organized crime in Japan is treated as big business and they even hold their own office buildings that are publicly known as their headquarters.

Not to mention in the few remaining rural areas are largely self-policed not even requiring much if any government intervention.

This is all second hand and speculation mind you. I haven't been to Japan myself to confirm. Although I'd like to one day. That place fascinates me.
 
Understand...

We should not recognize Foreign court decisions, unless under treaty - and even then only under condition they do not infringe on our Constitutional rights. Also it should be easily appealed since they do not follow the practices in law and evidence that our constitution protects. You commit a crime in their land, you suffer those consequences there.

Even for example, France will not recognize Roman Polanski's conviction of having sexual intercourse with a 13 year old girl. Nor will they send him here to serve his time even though we ask. There are many examples of this in play all over the world. There is a precident in how countries recognize convictions, which pretty much is anything goes. There is no obligation here.

Can anyone see the issue here? It is a non argument. We are U.S. citizens who fought, bled, died, and earned our constitutional rights. They cannot be thrown out the door back at home (due process, jury of peers, 5 amendment, etc. etc.) due to a conviction by some foreign court.

To say such is a thought bent on treason, dare I say in it's most extreme form.
 
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