So you think Scalia and Thomas are for a judiciary independent of foreign influence!

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roscoe

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Guess who was on the wrong side of this one (in my opinion):

(NY Times today)
Justices Side With Gun Owner Who Concealed Arrest in Japan
By DAVID STOUT
Published: April 26, 2005

WASHINGTON, April 26 - When Gary Small walked into a sports store in his hometown of Delmont, Pa., to buy a pistol, he probably did not see himself as the central figure in a Supreme Court case. But that is what he became.

Before walking out of the store with his 9-millimeter pistol on June 2, 1998, he filled out the mandatory federal form. It asked whether he had ever been convicted "in any court" of a crime punishable by a year or more in prison. Fatefully, he answered "no."

In fact, Mr. Small had never been convicted of any crime - in the United States. He had, however, run afoul of the law in Japan. The Customs authorities there became suspicious of him in 1992, when he shipped three electric water heaters from the United States to Japan, supposedly as gifts.

When he picked up the third water heater at the Okinawa airport, the authorities opened it and found two rifles, eight pistols and more than 400 rounds of ammunition, according to court papers. Mr. Small was convicted in Japan in 1994 of smuggling guns and sentenced to five years in prison there.

Paroled in the spring of 1998, he returned to the United States and his rendezvous with legal history.

His conviction in Japan turned up in a routine survey by the federal authorities of purchases at gun dealers. Not long after he bought the 9-millimeter pistol, a search of his southwestern Pennsylvania home, business premises and car turned up another pistol and more than 300 rounds of ammunition.

Indicted in 2000 on charges of making false statements and for possessing guns and ammunition as a convicted felon, Mr. Small moved through his lawyers to have the charges thrown out, arguing that the term "any court" meant any American court.

A federal district court rejected his argument, and Mr. Small entered a conditional plea of guilty, receiving an eight-month sentence but remaining free on bail while he appealed the district's court's refusal to dismiss the charge. The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, based in Philadelphia, agreed with the district court.

But today, the Supreme Court sided with Mr. Small, ruling 5 to 3 that the phrase "convicted in any court" applies only to convictions in the United States. "Congress ordinarily intends its statutes to have domestic, not extraterritorial, application," Justice Stephen G. Breyer wrote for a majority that also included Justices John Paul Stevens, Sandra Day O'Connor, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

To include foreign convictions, the majority reasoned, would raise the possibility of tainting a person who had been caught up in a legal system lacking American standards of fairness. Singapore imprisons people for up to three years for vandalism, the majority noted by way of example.

In dissent, Justices Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia and Anthony M. Kennedy said, among other things, that "any" means what it says. "Indisputably, Small was convicted in a Japanese court of crimes punishable by a prison term exceeding one year," Justice Thomas wrote. "The clear terms of the statute prohibit him from possessing a gun in the United States."

As for foreign court procedures, the dissenters said, the majority "constructs a parade of horribles" and "cherry-picks a few egregious examples" like the Singapore vandalism law.

"And it is eminently practical to put foreign convictions to the same use as domestic ones," the dissenters said. "Foreign convictions indicate dangerousness just as reliably as domestic convictions."

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist did not take part in the case of Small v. United States, No. 03-750, which was argued last fall while he was undergoing treatment for cancer.

The Supreme Court accepted Mr. Small's case because federal circuit courts had come to different conclusions on the relevance of foreign convictions in cases like his. Today, the five justices in the majority resolved those conflicts - while noting that theirs might still not be the last word.

Even though they held that the phrase "convicted in any court" applies to any domestic court, the majority said, "we stand ready to revise this assumption should statutory language, context, history or purpose show the contrary."

"Congress, of course, remains free to change this conclusion through statutory amendment," the majority added pointedly.
 
It outcome the way it should, but I am not mad at the dissenters. Get mad at the idiot that wrote the law so that it could possibly include any court worldwide.

I don't mind transfering penalties if it is in a country with a similiar judicial system (innocent till prove guilty, trial by jury, etc) and if it is a biggie (smuggling, murder, rape, etc). But knowing that some third world dictator that you offended on the internet can hold a trial and convict you, without you even knowing that the trial went on, and saying that you should never own a gun again is not good.
 
Their interpretation is correct, yes, but by that interpretation, the law is blatently unconstitutional as applied. Due process for deprivation of liberties includes trial by jury, and you don't get that in Japan.

They don't want the guy to own guns, charge him with smuggling here, and try him in a US court, under US laws. Ought to be a slam dunk, right?
 
Because he didnt commit a crime here. Posessing rifles and pistols is only a crime in japan. I said this in the other thread, but I think the real issue here is how much reach the US laws have. Judging by the constitution and by the way in which people have behaved for hundreds of years, I would say that the US law stops at the US borders. It should remain that way (and by today's ruling, it does).

Yes I changed my mind. The law isnt unconstitutional per-se, just completely contrary to any reasonable understanding of the concepts of law. It was the right decision.
 
The problem with that law is that either way you interpret "any court", there is a short and easy path to absurdity. One way, you lose RKBA for smuggling Bibles to China. Other way, you ignore a would-be gun buyer's Canadian murder conviction and yard-long felony rap sheet. Both, most people would agree, are nuts.

Both the supporting and opposing SCOTUS opinions are wrong, just pointing out opposing "this view is nuts, so we'll support the other view". Both are nuts.

The law is flatly unconstitutional because either interpretation easily leads to unconstitutional results.

The only right answer is to throw it out on (a) lack of due process (and with a 99+% conviction rate, I doubt Japans "due process"), and (b) foreign courts trumping the Bill Of Rights without further scrutiny. Fortunately the actual decision comes to the right conclusion, though by the wrong reasoning.
 
Why, sure he committed "a" crime here. You think it's legal to load guns into a water heater in the US, and then ship them to another country without accurately declaring what you're shipping?
 
(and with a 99+% conviction rate, I doubt Japans "due process")

And you're quite right to do so. "Confessions" obtained by torture are admissable in Japanese courts. However, I've heard they're not too hard on you after you sign the confession.
 
Brett, the problem is that firearms are TOTALLY ILLEGAL IN JAPAN. There is NO legal way to import or own (outside rank absurdity) firearms. If you want to exercise your natural right to keep and bear arms, you'll be breaking a host of laws to do so - kinda like our founding fathers did while seeking to attain a host of rights here.

A better analogy is smuggling Bibles to China.
 
ctdonath, sources from Japan have informed me otherwise. I'm not familiar with all of their restrictions, but it is not 100%, even for US citizens living there.
 
Sigh. Democrats. Republicans. What more does it take for those of us on the fence to dive in with a third party?

America is ready to wave good-bye to the Democans and Republicrats and start fresh; unfortunately, both branches of the monopoly have persuaded us we can't get along without them.

The law is flatly unconstitutional because either interpretation easily leads to unconstitutional results.

Actually, the law is unconstitutional because it's a clear violation of both the letter and spirit of the Second Amendment. Sad to say, that line of logic scares the Supreme Court silly.
 
Thomas, Scalia, and Kennedy are wrong this time, IMO. Would "any court" apply to, say, a Muslim country where Sharia is the law? To a third world tribunal by people with bones through their noses? To a dictatorship where kangaroo courts are the rule?

Please. :rolleyes:

I have to believe that the Bush II administration simply inhereted the prosecution of this one, and would not have pushed it on their own. At least I would hope so.

TC
 
if they didn't want him owning guns, they should have prosecuted him for it.

and they still could, correct?

Will we now say that crimes committed abroad may not be considered for approval of immigration? I think the Court is correct in challenging Congress to be more explicit. There is no right answer that would include real justice. This guy is a punk criminal. A possible explanation for the curious ruling is the Court posturing as suddenly conscientous about strict construction. The comment about Congress makes it pretty clear that they are responding to criticism of past creative rulings. They also demonstrate that restraint prevents them from ensuring justice.

It seems to me that all that is required is to be able to consider the crime in question and whether it would have been judged and sentenced the same in the US.

The example that first came to mind of a foreign "crime" was Francis Gary Powers, the U-2 pilot tried and convicted of espionage in Russia and held in prison for years. When he came home, was he a criminal? Probably not from a US perspective.
 
Thomas, Scalia, and Kennedy are wrong this time, IMO. Would "any court" apply to, say, a Muslim country where Sharia is the law? To a third world tribunal by people with bones through their noses? To a dictatorship where kangaroo courts are the rule?

By the letter of this poorly written law? yes. Thats the problem.

Oddly enough the court actually took an activist stance on this and ruled in accordance with their interpretation of the 'spirit' of the law, rather than the letter. You know, the exact sort of thing that EVERYONE was complaining about last month. I guess what matters is who the court is ruling for rather than how they do it. Activism is OK when it helps you, bad when it doesnt. makes sense, so long as everyone always agrees, its a shame that they dont.
 
Oddly enough the court actually took an activist stance on this and ruled in accordance with their interpretation of the 'spirit' of the law, rather than the letter.

I had the opposite interpretation. Funny how that works, isn't it? The dissenters were oddly activist, contrary to common representation, and that is the point of this thread.
 
I had the opposite interpretation. Funny how that works, isn't it? The dissenters were oddly activist, contrary to common representation, and that is the point of this thread.
The confusion over activism seems to me to be because the majority ruled against the government's position. Both the government and the dissenters were willing to more broadly interpret the meaning of the code. Scalia claims to reject this position in the case of the constitution, although he almost always defers to prosecutorial discretion. Hence the questionable decision.

I started this thread because I want people to recognize how much deference Scalia typically gives to government power. That is why he is no true friend to the 2nd Amendment.
 
In this case the "judicial conservatives"

may be difficult to identify.

It could be said to be the minority, which dutifully applied the statute AS WRITTEN. That is the "strict constructionist" approach the so-called conservatives are supposed to take.

However, the majority took an activist approach to the language - ignoring the clear meaning of "any" - yet applied a very conservative philosophical approach; REJECTING foreign law and holding the statute to our standards of due process. In other words, the same justices that were looking to foreign law just last month now refused to apply foreign convictions here - an interesting turn, to say the least.

I think the minority's position is logical, but near-sighted. It upholds that clear language of one statue, but makes our legal system the tool of inferior foreign systems with no respect for individual rights. :scrutiny:
 
My view of activist in this context would be to allow foreign law to be within the scope of reference in the language of the Constitution. Defining "strict constructionist" as absolutely reading the Constitution literally would mean that the Court wouldn't really be needed to interpret it. Therefore, I don't think a literal reading of the word "any' would be a righteous position at all. Judgment is needed, so an absolute rule of interpretation just doesn't work. The Constitution is not and could not be perfect nor can it be so exhaustive as to cover every possible circumstance.

The question was whether or not international law applied, not directly what the meaning of "any" might be, but whether the word's interpretation had been abused beyond its likely intent.

Not only has the Court overturned a lower Court, but it has overturned on a gun related case. That seems promising to me. Not only that, but three Justices associated with incorporating international law in their considerations have ruled against expanding the scope of applicable law, at least in this case's context.
 
Will we now say that crimes committed abroad may not be considered for approval of immigration?

Why should we? I'm unaware that non-citizens have a right to a jury trial before their request to immigrate here can be rejected. Depriving a citizen of a fundamental right. Telling a non-citizen that he can't move here. Not even vaguely related.
 
I believe, or would like to think that, the LEGAL immigration process includes an effort to filter out criminals. They are not welcome here, correct? The ability to verify backgrounds would obviously vary. I don't know exactly how it works. I can certainly picture how background checking would be problematic. Either way you slice it, if a criminal background were known, an immigration applicant would have a problem.
 
A background check and subsequent evaluation is one thing.
Automatic termination of natural Constitutionally-recognized (NOT granted) rights without consideration is very different.

BTW: the SCOTUS case in question involved an American citizen, not a foreigner. Congress is supposed to protect citizens' rights, not blindly terminate them based on verdicts of ANY foreign court.
 
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