Is it appropriate to tell an assailant you're armed?

[Brno]

I live in Colorado and have been carrying concealed for about two years. Yesterday, my wife, son & I experienced an unprovoked altercation in a mall parking lot with an extremely aggressive "assailant." We suspect the guy may have been coked up or high on something, but we don't know for sure. His eyes were widely dilated and his anger was off the charts.

He pulled up along side our car in a theater parking lot, bailed out of his truck and, shouting angrily, began accusing me of "looking at him funny!!" He acted as if he was gonna beat the snot out of me - which he could have easily done; he was 6' 4" or 5" and built like the Incredible Hulk. I'm a small framed 67 year-old disabled vet, and one punch from this animal would likely have sent me to the promised land.

My 40 year-old son, who was parked next to us, saw what was going down, got out of his truck and immediately stepped between us, but even at 6'2" and a solid 220 lbs., he would have been no match for this maniac.

They stood there inches apart in a face-to-face standoff for what seemed like an hour though I'm sure it was probably only a minute - if that. Right about then it occurred to me things could get nasty real quick if this guy continued to press the issue. I tried to reason politely with him, but he now wanted "a piece of my son" and paid no attention to me. My son just stood there still as a stone, never saying a word, staring straight into the guy's eyes. It was unnerving as hell.

I was just about to advise the guy that I had a .357 in my pocket aimed straight at his nuts, and that if he so much as raised a hand to strike my wife, my son or me, I'd assume he was trying to kill us and be forced to take the "appropriate defensive action" - hoping he'd be smart enough to understand the consequences.

Thank God, at precisely that point, he mysteriously backed off, got in his truck and drove away. We were all pretty rattled. A day later my wife is still freaked out. It's given us plenty to think about regarding concealed carry. We really believed this guy was going to pound one, or all of us, into pudding for reasons we still don't understand.

My question is this: In a confrontive situation like this, is it ever wise to warn an impending attacker you're armed and ready to shoot him if he continues to threaten you... or would that be seen by authorities as further provoking an already disintigrating situation? Or is it just a bad idea?

 

[col.lemat]

Bad idea. No such thing as a fair fight

 

[JERRY]

If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck....

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree with Clint Smith's teaching, of yelling "STOP!!" as you draw. You aren't pausing to give him another chance. You are being aggressive in your actions to deter a crime. You are fully intending to do whatever you have to, but he may still break off his aggression.

 

[dab102999]

I myself the second I thought threatens would be on the phone will 911 letting them know that I had a gun and a discription of myself and him also. While doing that I would position a car between us and have a hand on the gun at bare minimum. I think the second he heard you on the phone his level of anger would have gone down but that is not the point.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Is it appropriate to tell an assailant you're armed?

In my opinion, yes. As you draw and present the weapon. I would not advise a threat that I am armed verbally as a warning prior to showing my hand because that can give him time to make the first move.

If you would have warned him, he could have just as easily side-stepped to put your son between you and him and taken your gun out of play. Then, if he had a firearm, you have now become his first target, and your wife and son are defenseless if he successfully removes you from the fight.

 

[greenmtnguy]

+10 ^^^ Exactly.

 

[kayak-man]

Sounds spooky! Glad you and yours made it out OK!

Just for the sake of discussion, what do you think you would have done, if you had said that you had the gun, and he called you out on it, doing the "You gonna shoot me, man?" routine? Also, where you in the car, and once your son was involved, did you have a clear shot?

Personally, unless the guy is trying to break down my door, or there is some other barrier, I'm not going to tell him I'm armed. I'd be trying to de-escalate verbally (Thought you were someone else, don't I know you from ____...) and then, its either hands on, or drag race to the gun.

Just some extra food for thought: How much practice do you have shooting from the pocket or just point shooting in general? It might not be a bad idea to pick up a coat from good will, and practice shooting through your jacket pocket, just so that the next time your in that situation, if you have to shoot, you'll be able to get your hits.

Stay Safe,
Chris

 

[Shadow 7D]

your wife should have been on her phone
calling the cops

and like Deckard said, it isn't a fight, and never should get there.

 

[twofifty]

You must be proud of your son who stood up for mom and dad.
That is probably what in the end deterred this neanderthal from acting out on his threats.

 

[Brno]

You must be proud of your son who stood up for mom and dad.
That is probably what in the end deterred this neanderthal from acting out on his threats.

Oh yeah. Absolutely. He definitely stared this guy down, but it scared hell out of us. The tension between them for that long, grueling moment was almost unbearable, and the thought that the "neanderthal" might actually harm my kid is also the moment I seriously considered drawing my weapon.

After it was over, I realized how mentally unprepared I was for something like this. We talked about it for a long time. In retrospect, everything you guys have mentioned or suggested became a major topic of discussion - One of us should have gotten his license plate number, another should have dialed 911, and all of us should have put some serious distance between us and him. We did a lot of things wrong and very few things right. I had all I could do to keep from drawing my gun, and I'm glad I kept my mouth. We've got some homework to do.

Thanks to everyone for your consideration, critique and kindness. You guys are sharp. That's why I lurk here.

 

[critter]

Glad you turned out ok.

Nope. The first warning an enemy should get that you are armed is when (warented of course) is a very loud noise and bright flash.

 

[sean326]

I've been carrying for almost 30 years and my biggest fear is Someone saying that they felt threatened by my gun or (they feel) I threatened them just by them seeing it. Having Somone make a complaint about you carrying can be a real problem. That said, I'm from PA, an open carry state where if your paying attention you really see people open carry and concealed carry permits are (shall issue) very easy to get.

All that guy needed to do (if you chose to reveal that you were armed) was for him to make a complaint that he was minding his own business and you threatened him with a gun. At the very least it would have been a hassle at the most you could lose your permit.

 

[Pilot]

You were in your car, right? He was out of his, right? Why didn't you just drive away? If he steps in front of your car, make sure your doors are locked and call 911. Problem solved.

By getting out of his car, and confronting the man, your son put himself, and maybe you at great risk. Bad decision. Very bad.

AVOID, AVOID, AVOID, get away at all cost, especially when armed.

 

[MedWheeler]

Sean326 writes:

I've been carrying for almost 30 years and my biggest fear is Someone saying that they felt threatened by my gun or (they feel) I threatened them just by them seeing it. Having Somone make a complaint about you carrying can be a real problem. That said, I'm from PA, an open carry state where if your paying attention you really see people open carry and concealed carry permits are (shall issue) very easy to get.

All that guy needed to do (if you chose to reveal that you were armed) was for him to make a complaint that he was minding his own business and you threatened him with a gun. At the very least it would have been a hassle at the most you could lose your permit

^^Exactly. When people eating in Denny's can feel uncomfortable even by the presence of a law enforcement officer's holstered weapon, you don't want anyone knowing about yours until they need to.

If you ever do display your firearm in a defensive manner, whether or not shots are fired, and even if the potential assailant flees, make sure you call it in right away anyway. You don't want him to do so, claiming some other innocent reason for interacting with you and then being threatened by you.

The general rule is the first participant in a criminal encounter to call it in to the PD is going to be treated as the "innocent" one.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Hmmmm....

First of all, when physically confronted in this manner by an assailant with that kind of physique and obvious physical capabilities, there is little doubt about the "fear for your life or the life of someone else" aspect on your part.

Which means that the use of deadly force is authorized.

However, the approach is multi-faceted, given the fact that you were not alone and the way things played out.

With three people, directing one of them to call 911 is absolutely in order. Directing your wife to a position of greater safety is in order. Getting yourself in a position of greater safety/advantage is in order. And, given that your son did what he did, part of that would be placing yourself in a relatively safe position in which you could render armed assistance.

HOWEVER, you are under no obligation to give away ANY advantage to this guy under these circumstances by telling him your armed....unless it's to draw his attention to the business end of your weapon. Your health and life are already threatened. You don't give such an adversary a chance to get the drop on you before you act to equalize or overcome his threat with one of your own.

Nearly any adversary within 10 paces of an armed person who hasn't drawn his weapon can physically reach the other person before the weapon can be drawn and brought to bear. This hulk could have seriously injured you, killed you, and/or taken your weapon from you in the process.


Your son was a brave man. He could have gotten seriously injured, but luckily he didn't. It seems to me, by your description of the way things played out, that he has an excellent understanding about body language and the psychological aspects of posturing with respect to aggressive human behavior. The possible presence of drugs, however, makes that extremely tenuous at best.

Taking advantage of the distraction your son offered, bringing your weapon to bear on this hulk's conveniently huge center of mass, and THEN announcing the presence of your weapon would have been the way to go.


But in the end here, all's well that ends well and everybody is safe. Thank God for that.

 

[Risky]

Another thing to consider in this case and many others that you use the threat of force to deescalate a situation is what if the guy flagged down a cop and told them some crazy old man was pointing a gun at him threatening to kill him for no reason. With a description or license plate, the cops pull you over and low behold you're armed. You claim you never pointed it at the guy but the cop's line of thinking will be 'If you didn't how did he know you had it?'

Another good reason to always follow up by you calling police after a defensive incident even when you didn't really draw. C-Y-A. I know it seems like a waste of time and police manpower and would be much easier to just let it go... until those phone calls of 'man with a gun' go out and you become the suspect.

 

[JustinJ]

Was there some reason you could not simply drive away? A son is going to come to his father's aid so by failing to just leave, if possible, you put your son in danger as well as you and your wife.

 

[Brno]

Thanks again to all for your wise counsel. I promise you it will not go unheeded.

To clarify a few things and answer some of your questions:

1. We were parked next to my son's pickup - driver's side to driver's side. My wife had been driving, so I was on the passenger side. We had already exited our vehicle and locked the doors, so we couldn't "just drive away."

2. The "bad guy" came from behind our vehicle, slammed on his brakes and leapt from his truck yelling angrily - as near as I remember it - "You got something to say to me now before I rip your head off?

3. I looked at him, stunned. and said "What are you talking about? I was completely perplexed. At this point, my wife came over, equally puzzled. We were sandwiched between his truck and our vehicle, the guy was about 10-12 feet from us and coming at a fast menacing walk. He then shouted - "You looked at me funny back there and I'm gonna.... (I don't remember).

4. My son, Derek, saw the whole thing unfolding, jumped from his truck and immediately placed himself between me and the bad guy.

5. "And just who the hell are you?" The bad guy said. He seemed to grow even more pissed at this unexpected turn of events.

6. I'm Derek and that's my Dad you're messing with." The bad guy then chest bumped Derek and said, "Yeah? and so WHAT?"

7. Derek didn"t say a word, his body swelled and his face contorted into a crazed glare of such intense rage the hair on the back of my neck stood on end. It was like watching a mad wolf bare its fangs just before it leaps for your throat.

8. Like I said earlier, it seemed like an hour, but the guy endured that intimidating glare for only a few seconds before wilting, turning back to his truck and driving away. And it was during those few excruiatingly tense seconds that I thought about telling the guy I'd be forced to shoot him if he made a bad choice. Thankfully, something in my subconcious, kept me from saying anything. Fear?

9. Now - in the luxury of hindsight, and with the wisdom you guys have provided, I see where this could have gone horribly, horribly wrong if I had acted prematurely - the bad guy grabbing Derek or my wife as a hostage, pulling a gun of his own, screaming out "Man with a gun," etc. etc. I shudder to think of the possibilities.

!0. Obviously, we've learned a lot, and we hope such a thing never happens again, but if it does, we'll be better prepared. Thanks again for your collective considerations and critiques.

Dennis

 

[Nasty]

Agreed...should have driven off.

Otherwise...No, no warning. The flash and bang will notify the target.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Dennis,

There's a word we use here sometimes - gun-centric. Think about the supposed old proverb that goes, when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

What we try to do here is to expand the toolbox, so no one is stuck with just a hammer.

Since lawful employment of deadly force is defined so differently in so many jurisdictions, I can't say what the LE response to your drawing or threatening to draw would have been, had such an incident been reported. But one of the things you'll want to be sure of at this point (if you aren't already) is just what IS legal in your jurisdiction in this regard.

And you might want to give yourself some alternatives to deadly force, depending on what's legal in your area. I carry pepper spray as well as a S&W, for example. It's an ASP Key Defender and I've carried one or another version of this product for a good number of years now. I don't know if that's an option for you, but it might be worth considering. In the event you aren't justified in using a deadly force in a developing incident, having a lesser force level at hand might be a good thing.

I'm glad that this incident ended with things no worse than they were, and I do appreciate you sharing the experience and the lessons learned with us here...

 

[stolivar]

that is what mace is for. the gun don't come out till there are no other options. You should have been backing up and getting some distance between you, and keeping your vehicle between you. At the point your boy stepped between him and yourself there was no JAM principle to use deadly force on your part.

 

[Brno]

Shopping for pepper spray as we speak. Emailed the county sheriff to see if any special regs apply. Thanks for the helpful info.

 

[Brno]

Oh - tried looking up "JAM " principle in the lists of acronyms. Couldn't find it. What does that stand for?

 

[Pyzon]

Glad this one turned out ok. Add my opinion to those suggesting the avoidance of confrontation to whatever degree was available to you in that period of insanity. Getting back in your truck and phoning the cops with a description of the aggressor and his vehicle is easy to talk about now, and is food for thought, if God forbid, this ever happens again. Walking away is a win, but the authorities need to know who this idiot is, so they can add your episode to others that I bet they are aware of.

I hope I do not come off as critical of the end result, friend.