Almost Drew My Gun Today

[<MoA]

Good response, and my own "event"...

Good story, and timely for me as well. specifically, I was in downtown Yakima, Washington, a hotbed of gang activity and many gun violence incidents every month (see the news three days ago about the woman techer who was shot dead as she was waiting in a Taco Bell drive-through. Probably some sort of gang initiation event, according to the police.).

Anyhow, I was coming back from an appointment and stopped at about 11:30 am (morning, & bright and sunny to boot!), at a 7-11 to pick up a soda. As I parked my big F350 in front of this store and opened the door to get out, I noticed a bunch of gang bangers standing by the store door a few yards to the right. When I hopped out (but remained standing behind my truck door), one of them approached me on the sidewalk in front of the store, and when he was directly in front of my truck, he crouched down into a sort of Sumo wrestler position, glaring at me (or so I thought). This sent a real chill down my spine, since hey; I was just after a damned coke, FCS!

I had my J frame (.32 Mag) in my pocket, and reached in and gripped it in my hand. Then this guy started to approach me, moving towards my side of the truck and then flipped me (or so I thought) the bird! I stepped back, closed the door and simultanouesly drew the little J, and aimed it at his chest. "I think you should stop!" was all I could think to say, and you should have seen the look on his face, like he'd just been confrontd by an angry grizzly bear in the woods. Well! He yelled <deleted>, stood up and took off back to his buddies, and they all fled off the property post-haste!

Then I heard the laughter from the street sidewalk behind me. It was the other gang-banger "my" thuggo had been communicating with for who knows what reason. My guy had actually been looking past me, and I just mistakenly assumed I was the target. The gang-banger on the street thought it was all quite funny, but when I turned to him, he walked off briskly.

But for a brief moment, I was in real danger, or so I thought. Good thing I didn't reflexively fire though, and of course would not have unless he'd moved towards me, and even then I would have repeated the warning, before shooting this idiot, possibly in the knee. (But then, he'd vow to "come get'cha" when they let him out for "good behavior" in, oh, 1 - 2 years, right? Better to finish it then and there! Dead felons don't lie in court, after all... ).

Anyhow, I don't regret drawing on this toad, and am also v. glad I had that option. At 63.5, with arthritis, I'm in no mood nor condition to take on a group of thugs hand-to-hand. Only thing better would have been to have had my usual compact PARA LDA with it's more menacing .45 cal big dark bore-hole aimed at his brain-pan!

Anyhow, good call to the OP. Also in reporting it to the police. I would have done so in my little home town (they know me there!), but the Yakima Police have better things to do than take another danged report when nothing happened. I'd probably also get in some sort of hot water for having revealed a concealed weapon "in public"... On that point, don't take anything for granted about your legal rights any more; too bad, huh?

These sorts of events are more common, and as our evolving socio-economic situation grows ever worse, the baddies will surely come out of the woodwork (like termites when you fumigate for them) and will be increasingly more daring.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by <MoA:...he crouched down into a sort of Sumo wrestler position, glaring at me (or so I thought). ...Then this guy started to approach me, ..and then flipped me (or so I thought) the bird! I stepped back, closed the door and simultanouesly drew the little J, and aimed it at his chest. "I think you should stop!" was all I could think to say, and you should have seen the look on his face,... ...Then I heard the laughter from the street sidewalk behind me. It was the other gang-banger "my" thuggo had been communicating with for who knows what reason. My guy had actually been looking past me, and I just mistakenly assumed I was the target.

The poster <MoA has evidently avoided complications so far. If the incident should end up being reported by a bystander and being investigated, it is possible that the actor would be successful in persuading others that a reasonable person would have believed that the production of the weapon had been immediately necessary, justifying what would ordinarily have constituted a crime. Or maybe not.

From the tactical standpoint, he stood the risk of being shot by an armed citizen, one of the "thuggos", or a police officer.

We do not want to draw a weapon unless we have no choice.

But for a brief moment, I was in real danger, or so I thought.

The question is always, does one have a basis for a reasonable belief that he is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, and that he has no other alternative than the threat or use of deadly force?

Thinking that someone who is not displaying a weapon is glaring at one is most unlikely to cut it.

Good thing I didn't reflexively fire though,...

It sure is.

...and of course would not have unless he'd moved towards me, and even then I would have repeated the warning, before shooting this idiot, possibly in the knee.

If the shot "in the knee" would have been intentional, that fact could seriously weaken the argument that deadly force had been justified.

(But then, he'd vow to "come get'cha" when they let him out for "good behavior" in, oh, 1 - 2 years, right? Better to finish it then and there! Dead felons don't lie in court, after all... )..

We do not advocate "finishing it than and there".

On that point, don't take anything for granted about your legal rights any more; too bad, huh?

Your sumo wrestler has legal rights, too.

Everyone, please review the rules for this forum and heed them. Also, refrain from posting things hat can get one into trouble.

 

[firemanstrickland]

hold on just one second, why in the world should he have backed away? heck no! he stood his ground to protect his family and himself! good job man, don't listen to that crap! either he was gonna try to mess with you or he was just a drunk, it does not matter, he was approaching you in a threatening manner. i wouldnt want him in arms reach anyways. GOOD JOB MAN! i wouldnt change a thing!!!

 

[Sam1911]

..and of course would not have unless he'd moved towards me, and even then I would have repeated the warning, before shooting this idiot...

Yet, someone approaching you is not an articulable lethal threat. You can't shoot someone merely because they came near you when you said not to.

Your commands can work to change the dynamic of a situation, give you more information about a person's motives and intents, and even establish your position in the minds of witnesses should things progress further. However, you can't give legally binding orders to anyone on the street, and cannot harm them if they don't follow your demands.

This is something I alluded to at the end of post 22. IF on the off chance that a criminal really wants to play a twisted and risky game, he could invade your personal space quite severely -- but if he produces no weapon, demonstrates no aggressive or hostile behavior, and manages to give you nothing concrete to point to as informing your reasonable fear of imminent death or grave injury -- YOU are legally in the wrong if you draw, brandish, or shoot him.

"But I said 'go away' and he didn't!" is not an affirmative defense for homicide.

possibly in the knee

Let's not even get into that except to say, you can't shoot someone "just a little." You're either justified to shoot or you aren't.

Better to finish it then and there! Dead felons don't lie in court, after all...

Good grief -- as I've said before, "We cannot kill them to stop them from showing up in court. We cannot kill them in revenge for what they've done. We cannot kill them from fear of what threat they might pose to us later if they survive. We may ONLY shoot to stop their assault on us."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by firemanstrickland: hold on just one second, why in the world should he have backed away?

One very good tactical reason, taught in the professional self defense courses, is to provide additional time and distance for the draw and for shots, if required, to have the effect of stopping the subject. Put simply, it's a good way to stay alive.

A second very good reason is that it may prevent you from having to resort to the use of deadly force. You do not want to use deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary to stay alive. Even if you are justified, it could cost you your fortune, your income, and the friendship of others.

A third very good reason is that retreat may be required in your jurisdiction, if it is possible to safely do so; that requirement, which predates the US Constitution by many centuries, has been removed from the law in some states. but it was still in effect in the OP's home state as recently as April of this year. Note--do not presume that your state does not impose a duty to retreat simply because it is not delineated in the code; where I live, for example, it is a matter of case law.

A fourth very good reason is that in the event that you have had to use deadly force, even in a "stand your ground" jurisdiction, the fact of your having tried to escape may prove very valuable indeed in your defense of justification.

...he stood his ground to protect his family and himself!

He did not say that.

i wouldnt want him in arms reach anyways.

Neither would I, hence I would heed Sam's advice:

1) Retreat. Keep your distance. Put something between you and him (like the car). Make it perfectly (LOUD and) clear that you feel threatened and want to be left alone.

2) If possible, get in the car, lock the door and drive away.

 

[Sam1911]

...why in the world should he have backed away? ... i wouldnt want him in arms reach anyways.

I think you answered your own question.

Why would he back away? Because he didn't want to be within arms reach of the man, and the man had given our hero no legal reason to shoot or otherwise assault him. No weapon, no word of a threat, no articulable reason to be in specific fear for his life.

So what else is he going to do? Backing away seems like the only lawful, and logical, option.

You do not want to use deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary to stay alive.

As Kleanbore is pointing out, shooting him isn't something you're looking for an excuse to do. It is something you may be forced to do, very much against your will, to stay alive.

I wrote this about a year ago and it may speak to your question, if not in exact intent, at least in tone:

A person who carries a gun has to be utterly meek and mild mannered -- a person who considers no offense worth escalating, because he knows that he holds in his hands the power to end someone's life. He cannot allow himself to be drawn into arguments, road rage, shoving matches, fist fights -- or any situation that could "end badly," because that bad end may be death, jail, and a life ruined by felony convictions and all their associated troubles (loss of job, divorce, financial ruin, lifelong emotional trouble, etc.). So "standing up to jerks," "putting people in their places," "taking no guff," "road rage" and all that macho bull-oney are understood to be worthless. In the end, it boils down to asking, "will I allow myself to kill someone over an insult, when I could have ended the argument by simply walking away?" Having to kill someone -- even ultimately in self-defense -- when you contributed to the problem instead of de-escalating it at all costs is pretty despicable. It is a failure of your mindset to extricate you from a dangerous situation by any means possible, and is horridly unacceptable.

 

[Flfiremedic]

There is a common exercise done where a suspect/threat/actor or whatever you want to call him fails to follow simple commands beyond putting his hands up. Might be good food for thought here. Goes like this:
You present your weapon to affect a felony arrest or maybe a bit prematurely during a civilian confrontation. Actor has his hands up but continues to approach you...again his HANDS are ABOVE HIS HEAD as per your command, however he fails to stop approaching you...becomes more aggitated yelling "Why'd you pull a gun?" "You gonna shoot me?" or "Shoot me you <deleted>" all the while he continues to approach you at a slow rate of speed with his hands in the air. What do you do? Are you justified to fire? Remember he has his hands in the air...no weapon seen.

There are quite a few right and wrong answers, but one point comes out...once you've pulled the weapon or advised someone you have one, your options may become limited.

Just because someone is a crimial, drunk, or just thuggy looking does not mean they don't know tactics as well or better than you do. Not a lot to do in prison other than workout and practice things like take downs or disarming/weapons snatches.

 

[Fred Fuller]

A couple of things I'd like to clarify, for folks who might not be accustomed to how things work around here and what's expected of participants here...

First of all, we do not advocate murder or any other illegal acts. Doing so will at minimum earn you infractions and will likely get you booted off THR completely if the behavior is repeated after a warning. A blatant enough error along those lines won't even get a warning and an infraction, just a permaban. We aren't kidding. Read the rules, if you haven't already - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561603 .

Secondly, there have been several 'it happened to me' threads of late that bear a certain amount of similarity in their topics - 'I almost drew my gun today.' There's some concern that some of those threads have a bit of an air of "I almost got a chance to draw my gun" instead of "OMG I almost had to draw."

No reasonable responsible person WANTS to ever have to draw, or worse, fire their sidearm. Please think about that carefully. Very carefully. As my sainted MIL says, "It isn't enough not to want to. You have to want not to."

Thanks,

lpl

 

[Jim NE]

MOA, you're scenario sounds scarier than the OP's scenario IMO, because you were encountering a group rather than an individual, and in an area that apparently has some recent history of violence. The group dynamics of like-minded losers only makes such situations worse. I'm glad you're alright, but saddened and surprised a town like Yakima has to deal with such things.

As to your comment:

These sorts of events are more common, and as our evolving socio-economic situation grows ever worse....

Please don't attribute their behavior to either society or the economy. Human beings have lived through much worse...and without becoming criminals.

 

[rooter]

I think you behaved overly paranoid in this scenario. You had no justifiable reason to introduce a firearm into this equation, yet you did (regardless of whether it was drawn or not). What would you have done if he continued walking toward you? I believe you would have drawn. The fact of the matter is you couldn't have justifiably done anything except walked away. He posed no threat to you. He could have walked to within 6 inches of you and fished around in his pockets all he wanted.

I see too many CCW'ers who view their gun as a conversation piece or treat packing as a pecker measuring contest. You should be looking for reasons not to draw, not to intervene, not to have a conflict, and not to be the center of attention.

Suppose some of you "give me a reason" gun toters are placed into a "socially awkward" situation, such as the one described by the OP, and you blow it out of proportion, as usual, and place your hand on your gun preparing to draw. I am just a normal guy with no ill intentions and see you as a threat. Chances are you're going to have a real bad day in one way or another. If armed, I'm going to neutralize the threat. Justifiable homicide and a purely preventable tragedy for both of us.

 

[Sam1911]

Just as a little more food for thought, something I posted in another thread:

Tom Givens' "Lessons From the Street" DVD had a very instructive, if a bit chilling, story of one of his former students who shot two men in self-defense. He was alone in a convenience store parking lot, felt that a group of men present were possibly getting ready to do him harm. He spoke to them, telling them basically to go away. That ticked them off and they then did approach him. He fled and they took chase. He ran some distance away, being actively pursued by six or more men. He turned and fired, hitting two of them.

He was arrested and charged, and ended up sweating out a long court process which ended in, IIRC, probation, and he was quite lucky to get that.

What is pertinent about this to your question? The "victim" spoke to these men, giving them an instruction or command, which he had a legal right to do (though no authority to enforce), but that was seen as instigation of the events which followed. He had no legal right to fire on those men when he first made contact, yet his actions lead to him shooting two of them. He therefore shared culpability for their deaths.

Is speaking in firm tones to someone who has alarmed you a tactically sound thing to do? Yes, probably, in many cases. But, just like with drawing your gun, know -- articulably -- why you're doing it, and know what you're going to do next, if your words/actions don't produce the desired result.

 

[ultradoc]

glad things worked out in your favor.

 

[firemanstrickland]

rodger that, i will respectfully bite my tounge. im sorry i stepped on toes and for the record i NEVER refered to murder.

 

[buck00]

I could smell the booze rolling off him, even at 15 feet. His dog was barking like mad from inside the truck. The guy seemed kind of shocked and after grumbling a little he began moving away.

The non-draw was the right move.

The guy wasn't a criminal or looking to prey on you, just a drunk who wasn't aware of personal space or that he was intruding.

 

[Vermonter]

OP - Good call.

MOA - a prosecutor would have hung you with the fact that you could have gotten back in your truck, but instead chose to close the door and escalated the situation.

 

[orionengnr]

Perhaps a better subject line might have been "A Tense Situation Today"; that's really what this is about.

"A tense situation" would have been the perfect description of what had happened if the OP had been unarmed. Fortunately, that was not the case.
"Almost drew my gun" is exactly what happened, and is perfectly appropriate.

MOA's situation makes you think twice about moving backwards...sure as the hey better have your head on a swivel.

 

[Ben86]

I guess i learned that the crazies that are out at night, are occasionally still out the next morning. Either way, nothing bad happened, but I am glad that i had my gun, and not my keltec in an ankle holster.

If you guys have any insights on this please let me know.

This is one of the biggest lessons I take away from your situation. Imagine if you had to draw from the ankle holster while he was closing the distance. Far from ideal. You might want to look into a good pocket holster for your p3at. Not as fast as a hip holster, but way better than an ankle holster.

You did good by the way.

 

[MikeNice]

Is speaking in firm tones to someone who has alarmed you a tactically sound thing to do?

It really depends on what you say. Be very aware of what you plan to say and what you actually say. If it is seen as potentially instigating the situation you could be up the creek. In some states the instigator has no right to lethal force. That means your words could potentially remove your self defense claims.

In NC a person found to be the agressor, instigator, or using excessive force can be prosecuted for manslaughter. So, what you say, when you say it, and how you say it can affect the possible viability of your self defense claim.

I was instructed by one cop to say, "You are in my personal space please back away." If that doesn't work say, "You are too close and you are making me uncomfortable. Back away now." The last line is, "I do not want to fight but I will defend myself. Back away now."

Of course everything depends on the circumstances of the moment. Just remember not to use threatening language. Make it obvious that you want to avoid conflict if you speak. If a witness can't remember what you said he should be able to remember you asking the person to leave you alone.

 

[Flfiremedic]

Mike,
I think you nailed it there!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by orionengnr: "A tense situation" would have been the perfect description of what had happened if the OP had been unarmed.

It surely would have been more worrisome had he been unarmed, but it was tense, just the same.

"Almost drew my gun" is exactly what happened, and is perfectly appropriate.

We cannot tell that. He was quite properly "ready to draw if...", but we do not know if the "if" almost occurred. Pure conjecture.

MOA's situation makes you think twice about moving backwards...sure as the hey better have your head on a swivel.

Well, yeah, it's not usually a good idea to move when you do not know what's in one's path.

What >MoA's situation should make one think twice about is the possibility that the man on "the street sidewalk behind" him might well have drawn and fired when he drew and aimed, and he just might have been justified.

 

[wheelguy]

MoA - Thank you for sharing that with us. An important example, well told.

If you could please clarify a point for me - do you think he would have reacted in a more scared manner if you had your .45 instead of "just a" .32?

I have heard that the appearance of ANY gun often ends the fight, and that is what it sounds like happened here.

 

[JustinJ]

It's impossible for any other person here to assess the situation over a computer monitor. However, given the individual was intoxicated the behavior that you took to be threatening could have simply been misinterpreted as a drunks mind can go off in weird tangents seemingly for no reason. Something in his head may have caused him to walk towards you for some completely harmless reason as was probably the case. He may have just simply wanted to show you a picture. I do believe that firmly telling him to keep his distance and even alluding to the fact that you have a weapon was likely a good choice but you were far from being legally justified to brandish your weapon, much less fire it.

I've considered acquiring a tazer or OC spray specifically for situations where someone is being threatening but not blatantly enough to draw on. The biggest reason i haven't is not wanting to carry that in addition to a firearm and also i am not familiar with laws pertaining to their use by non LE.

"No reasonable responsible person WANTS to ever have to draw, or worse, fire their sidearm."

This isn't exactly true. There is a little discussed phenomenon in which a part of a person wants and fantasizes about getting to use their weapon. They will actually start to wish and look for a reason to. Its probably more pronounced in younger men who have just recently started carying a gun in whatever capacity they do. It happens with cops, soldiers and CC holders alike. Personally i think this is why some cops are so quick to shoot a dog. They have a weapon with all the power it gives and they start itching to exercise it. In addition to the power thing there are a variety of other reasons for this yearning but what is important is that the logical part of the brain recognizes this for what it is and does not let it influence decisions.

 

[Sam1911]

I've considered acquiring a tazer or OC spray specifically for situations where someone is being threatening but not blatantly enough to draw on. The biggest reason i haven't is not wanting to carry that in addition to a firearm and also i am not familiar with laws pertaining to their use by non LE.

This is a common problem with less-lethal choices. Spraying someone with OC or Tazing them is assault. You can't commit that felony -- lawfully -- without the same justification you'd need to show to defend a decision to shoot them.

In the hands of a law-enforcement officer, these are used as less-lethal compliance devices used to effect an arrest and subdue a detainee. But joe citizen has no lawful need to obtain forced compliance and extremely limited powers to detain anyone, so in the hands of someone who is not a sworn LEO, their only lawful use is the same as a baton, bat, or a kick, punch, etc: as an alternative to a gun when a gun isn't available.

The threshold for ANY use of force, as an average citizen (in almost all instances) is the same for all kinds of force. If someone's threatening you, but you don't have an articulable reasonable fear of immediate death or grave injury -- and you taze them or OC spray them or hit them with an ASP, etc -- expect to be charged and probably convicted of assault.

 

[JustinJ]

Sam1911, thanks for the info. I have been curious about legalities surrounding less than lethals. Is there any variance from one state to another? Does anybody know of any specific cases involving a less than lethal device?

One could also argue though that for a "gray area" threat the risk of an assault conviction is far better and cheaper in court than manslaughter or murder. It does seem probable that if a man were verbally threatened by a male of roughly equal size, as in "i'm gona beat your ass", he could argue the use of pepper spray or a tazer was self defense much easier than the brandishing or firing a gun.

 

[MikeNice]

This is a common problem with less-lethal choices. Spraying someone with OC or Tazing them is assault. You can't commit that felony -- lawfully -- without the same justification you'd need to show to defend a decision to shoot them.

That is not true in every jurisdiction. In NC chemicals are listed below lethal force in the use of force continuim.

Soft Hands, Hard Hands, Chemical, Electrical, Blunt, Lethal Force. Lethal force takes a whole lot more justification than spray. However, it is still assault if you can not articulate the threat that caused you to use it. To go to chemical it has to be a situation where physical confrontation can lead to serious injury or there is a disparity of force.

Put simply spray doesn't have the same level of threat as lethal force. You do need more justification that you would for simply going hands on.