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Is it even worth arguing with the Anti's?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Comrade Mike, Nov 26, 2013.

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  1. Warp

    Warp Member

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    People like Feinstein, Pelosi, Hussein, and Bloomberg come to mind. Guns for them, their family, and their protectors, but not for us. No no no, we aren't deserving.

    Also the politicians in May Issue states that voted for or failed to repeal those May Issue laws.

    Everybody, be they private citizens, LEO's, politicians, whoever, that support gun restrictions that apply to some people but not others (LEO and LEA exemptions, etc).

    I am aware that a lot of people who consider themselves pro gun do in fact support a lot of gun control. This comes up a lot on gun forums.
     
  2. goon

    goon Member

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    Nope. Arguing with them is entirely pointless.
    I often start to type things, then realize I have better things to do than sit around caring some stupid online argument... like writing a letter to a rep. Or sending a check.
     
  3. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    You said "many of them see value in the peasant class being disarmed". What is the value they see that you refer to?
     
  4. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Clearly they see value in it, because they are doing it.

    It's easier to push things through and say "sorry, that's just the way it is, deal with it" when they have guns and goons with guns, but the general population is restricted, if not disarmed outright.

    When people pass laws that apply only to some people, we have a serious problem.
     
  5. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Okay, but again, what is the value that they see? And to clarify, they haven't actually been pushing for a gun ban as would be needed for an unarmed populace. Rather they are seeking additional restrictions. That is a statement of fact, not a defense of their actions.
     
  6. Warp

    Warp Member

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    One additional restriction after the other. They've been at it for decades and decades. Even when they say they are done, and they say they won't go farther (example, you can keep your standard capacity magazines...but no, then they come back and say you can't...they say you can use your 10 round magazines...but no, then they come back and say it's a serious crime to have more than 7 rounds in them)

    No reasonable person believes their lies any more.
     
  7. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Warp: I think you will notice certain similarities concerning discussions with anti's and with Justin. Something to learn from for future reference.
     
  8. Warp

    Warp Member

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    I noticed that awhile ago.

    A not-uncommon strategy is to make excuses for the antis and grabbers under the guise of being in support of something you really aren't.
     
  9. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    "Arguing" is a losing proposition. It's not that you won't have valid points that you cannot get across effectively...it's that the PROCESS of arguing is itself polarizing. Argue with someone and they automatically dig their heels in, which makes it more difficult.

    "Debating" or, better yet, "discussing" is another matter. You have to learn to work around the conflict-ridden "argument" aspect in order to present things in a more conducive manner. And part of this has to do with the receptiveness of your audience. If they're not receptive, then perhaps simply diffusing the situation and avoiding it altogether is the best option, until you can control the field better.

    How you approach individuals depends on their personality, the circumstances, and whether or not they're part of a crowd. One-on-one dynamics is radically different than one-on-group or group-on-group dynamics. Too many variables and too much opportunity to side-swipe events as you increase the number of participants.

    If the person is someone you know or are friends with, then the dynamics also change as compared to strangers.

    If you want an INTELLIGENT discussion, then keeping your cool is an absolute must...along with respect and not BSing people. And try to keep the numbers of people involved to a bare minimum. Choose your point and keep the discussion focused on that point, not allowing it to wander off into whatever other shiney-object topic.


    The most fatal errors people make about such debates are:

    1. Getting involved with an actively hostile group or individual.

    2. Getting involved when there is a participating audience supporting the opposition.

    3. Not keeping the subject limited in focus, both for yourself and your opponent.

    4. Not picking their battle(s): as in trying to defend/support too much or too many points of view.

    5. Not treating your opponent with dignity and respect, even if you vehemently disagree. This implies listening to THEIR concerns and viewpoints and dealing with them as if they're important...because they ARE important to THEM.

    6. Not picking a topic with which you are adequately conversant with.


    If you debate effectively, you win lots of little battles, which in turn add up to a greater victory AND increased respect. Even if you don't win something outright, it's still a great victory to have your opponent walk away from the discussion respecting you afterwards. It's an open door for the future.
     
  10. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Clues to watch for that indicate they are not really open to a thorough discussion: #1 The individual will pick out one word or phrase from multiple sentences or paragraphs and make that the focal point of his argument. If the subject is restrictive gun laws the response by the anti will be "So you don't want to stop the insane or unfit from having a gun?" when you have stated no such thing. There is no point in continuing a discussion when the other participant refuses to acknowledge the entire subject. Might as well go home and talk to the wife......
     
  11. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    Yes, but only if you can operate from the high ground. If you tend to become ill mannered or are prone to foul language or unsound fact in such discussions, then discretion is the better part of valor. If however you can make a cogent argument that may resonate with the vast majority of uninformed and vaguely prejudiced non gun owners then it is worth it. The key is to think not about "winning" but influencing. Ranting about RKBA and detailed 2nd Amendment arguments will score points with like minded folk but will be unlikely to influence the uninformed.

    A very effective argument is that the Second Amendment is no less valid than the First or 14th for that matter. And just as many people intensely disapprove of the views and opinions of others, we recognize that maintaining the right to freedom of expression is important to our society. Many people are very, very angry that the 14th Amendment has been deemed to protect gay marriage, but that doesn't mean we should disregard a core protection of rights for all regardless of race color or creed in the Constitution. Similarly, many people,particularly those who live in cities and have little experience of firearms see no "need" for them,let alone for strict adherence to the Constitution's guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. But there are many people in society who deem their right to self protection a fundamental right and who see an armed populace as a deterrent to egregious stupidity and power hunger by politicians. You may not agree with them any more than they might agree with your views on a number of issues. But if you care about your freedom of expression, you need to respect their right to keep and bear arms because the Second Amendment is no less a part of the Constitution than the First.

    Gun nuts will view such an argument as weak and insufficient. Antis will utterly ignore it. So what? Many of the vast uninformed will not much care, now or ever. Some will recognize the legitimacy of protecting a right that they don't really care for. On this issue, that's victory.
     
  12. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    Color me curious, how do you expect an outright ban on firearms to be effective in keeping guns out of the hands of criminals?
     
  13. Sagetown

    Sagetown Member

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    No. A buddy of mine was a Squad Leader in the jungles of Vietnam. He saw more action than most. Saw his best men shotdown, blowed up, etc. You'd think after all of that, he would be pro-gun. Not ! He was very set against gun ownership of any type. After we came back from the war he'd have severe nervous breakdowns. Maybe the reason for his anti gun ownership.?
     
  14. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    Not in the least. Leftist's value systems are dysfunctional. Save your breath.
     
  15. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    OP, you debate gun issues with Facebook people?

    Seriously?
    How's that working out for you?

    Invite them to the range, or take them hunting, and give them a day of your time.

    You will get no traction trading Facebook rants.
     
  16. Piratesailor

    Piratesailor Member

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    Short answer... Nope. Don't waste your breath.
     
  17. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    So then that means, no, you're not going to answer the question?

    Steel Horse, talking to you makes me know for sure i'm not an anti. If I were, your complete inability to debate intelligently would give me great hope for the spread of gun control support. Ad hominem, your only tactic, demonstrates a complete lack of aptitude to defend your beliefs so hopefully you will decide it not worthwhile to debate "antis" or else I fear far more harm than good.

    Advocates of a nation wide gun ban, of which there are few to none in the US, don't expect such an initiative to be 100% effective in preventing criminals from owning guns. Rather, the expectation of gun ban proponents is to reduce the number of criminals who have access to guns and thus reduce incidents of murder. They also are looking at long term in which laws would eventually whittle away the number of available guns on the street thus making supply much lower than demand. I doubt anybody expects that high level criminals will ever be unable to get guns but rather that scarcity and associated black market costs would put them out of the reach of most common criminals. Also, mentally disturbed people like Adam Lanza, who generally lack criminal connections, would become unable to get them. Most gun control advocates I know realize that a national gun ban in the US is completely unrealistic because there are so many existing in private hands. Effective confiscation would require draconian measures and other major infringements of civil liberties.
     
  18. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Justin: You certainly have all the answers! There is no need to debate any subject in which we are in agreement. So far in my experience on this website you have never been in agreement with anyone that I can recall, but you are a master of pulling one phrase or word and substituting that for the complete thought or idea expressed. You, sir, are an expert.
     
  19. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    To change THEIR minds, no.

    To change the minds of bystanders, ABSOLUTELY.

    There's nothing better than to show one of them up as a liar in front of a bunch of undecideds or weak antis.

    A lot of them are also bigots of various stripes. I LOVE to expose them for the racists, anti-Semites and homophobes they often are. Their usual response? Double down on evil and stupid. I could never show their degeneracy half as well as they seem so eager to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  20. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Utter nonsense and per usual i'm sure you won't back up your claims. But so far its been my experience that your only real intent is engagement in some little message board feud with me. Such would be fine if you would ever actually make arguments rather than just launch your little personal attacks. Or maybe I should just sit around and take my turn to hoot and holler about how stupid everybody is who disagrees with any of the standard gun rights mantras? No thanks.
     
  21. Mike1234567

    Mike1234567 member

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    Is it worth "arguing" with your wife? No!! When we all calm down enough to debate reasonably then, yes. Calm debate is always good. Angry/emotional arguing is always bad.
     
  22. Taterhead

    Taterhead Member

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    If you want to change hearts and minds, you must engage people in a way that helps them to be open to your ideas rather than to put up defense mechanisms. If they close off to you, you are done. Some people's minds won't be changed. Period. There are, however, plenty of people that have formed anti-gun opinions that are not necessarily well-informed nor ill-intended. We cannot expect everyone to take as much pride in guns and gun ownership as we do. For some people, it is not their thing -- unless we can be good ambassadors. I have seen people become gun enthusiasts after initially having an anti-gun bias.

    There is some psychology in play. One only needs to come away with an impression about an issue for it to forge a strong opinion. That strong opinion might not be supported by knowledge and experience, but the opinion might be strong nonetheless. Liberals know this. That is why they are experts at distilling down emotional messages to the length of bumper stickers. They might be otherwise empty rhetoric, but invoke strong opinions:

    "Stop the senseless gun violence against children"
    "High Powered Assault Rifle"
    "Sensible Gun Safety Laws"
    "Gun show loophole"
    "High capacity magazines"
    "You don't need a military assault rifle to hunt deer."
    etc.

    I have successfully changed hearts and minds about guns. First, insulting someone doesn't work. Some people have virtually no understanding about guns, but they have been exposed to messages that have yielded anti-gun impressions and, thus, have shaped an opinion. Those people can be rationalized with sometimes if you find a way to connect.

    We must also be careful to not use the language that anti-gunners have used to frame the debate, "high powered assault rifle" is really a "sporting rifle." "High capacity magazines" are really "standard capacity magazines" (30 round ARs, 17 round G17s, etc.)

    One of the best ways is to offer to take someone shooting. Mostly not possible on the internet, but in your own social circle, this can be effective. Baby steps. Exposure removes some of the mystique and normalizes guns in the proper context. You can fill in the blanks with reality, rather than this impression forged by anti-gunner propaganda.

    It has worked for me a number of times with friends and relatives. If you can discuss gun issues without becoming defensive or cranky, you have a chance with some people. With our country so divided, it is those on the margin that will sway elections one way or the other.
     
  23. Agsalaska

    Agsalaska Member

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    Nope. There is way too much poison in the water to even let it be a conversation.
     
  24. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I have unapologetic "simplistic black and white view points" about quite a few things, including but not limited to:
    • slavery
    • pedophilia
    • rape
    • genocide
    • gay bashing
    • domestic abuse
    A fascistic government monopoly (or near monopoly) on the means of armed force is every bit as much of a "black and white" issue to me as adults having sex with children.
     
  25. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I have NO such expectation and that's backed up by literally DECADES of personal experience.

    What I DO expect from them is:
    • irrationality bordering on the delusional.
    • astonishing ignorance of the subject.
    • levels of dishonesty I've seen only in Holocaust deniers.
    • the sort of racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and homophobia one would expect from the Aryan Brotherhood.
    I know EXACTLY what to expect from anti-gunners and they RARELY disappoint.
     
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