Is it worth it to try to argue with someone like this?

[Golden Hound]

I got into a debate with my bass teacher (I play upright bass) earlier tonight about guns. He told me he had read a letter to the editor that I had written to the paper:

Barack Obama is an enemy of our second amendment rights. As a senator, he sought to ban the sale of all semi-automatic weapons in the state of Illinois. He is in favor of the re-institution of the notorious Federal Assault Weapons ban, which uses arbitrary characteristics such as folding stocks and pistol grips to designate said “assault weapons” – distinctions which are meant to deceive those who do not understand firearms with “scary” words. These so-called assault weapons are used in a tiny proportion of all gun crimes. Furthermore, Obama supports the banning of concealed handguns. In other words, he wants law-abiding citizens to be unable to carry a concealed handgun for self-defense, while criminals who have no regard for the laws whatsoever will go on committing crimes. Lawfully-owned, concealed handguns account for a miniscule percentage of gun crimes. Criminals typically don't bother applying for a carry permit. Obama’s position on guns is the typical ignorant far-left party line. Tell us, Barack, does your opposition to concealed handguns also apply to your bodyguards and security details? Wait, I already know the answer. What a hypocrite! No gun owner should even consider voting for this man.

I told him that I believed in all of our constitutional rights, including the right to be armed.

Him: "I don't believe in guns, and I certainly don't think people should have handguns. A gun creates death - all it's good for is creating death."

Me: "Don't you think it's important to be able to defend yourself in case you are attacked or your house is broken into?"

Him: "We live in a very safe town. It's not like we live in New York or something - nobody's going to break into your house as long as you keep your windows and doors locked."

Me: "Well, first of all, if we did live in New York or somewhere dangerous, wouldn't it be especially important for us to be able to be armed? And secondly, how do you know that NOBODY is ever going to break into your house or threaten your life? How can you be sure?"

Him: "Well, if you point a gun at someone, you're just going to get shot."

Me: "What?"

Him: "Well, unless you shoot first. Then he gets shot. Either way, someone gets shot."

Me: "You don't think we should have a right to shoot back just on the off chance that someone might threaten our lives? A bank guard can legally carry a gun to protect a bunch of money - and that money is worth more than my life? Politicians (the same ones who support gun control) have bodyguards who carry guns - their lives are worth more than our lives?"

Him: "But banks and politicians are more likely to be targets of violence. Who is going to attack you or me?"

Me: "You never know who's going to attack. Especially Jews (me and my bass teacher are BOTH Jewish.) Jews are always going to be targets of violence. We should be especially supportive of the second amendment - it means that we can stop something like the Holocaust. What about the people in the Warsaw Ghetto? Don't you think they had the right to be armed?"

Him: "That was a different time. We're not living in World War II Germany. We're safe here. Our government is not going to harm us."

Me: "How can you be sure? Why are you so trusting of the government? Don't you think that we should be able to protect ourselves against the government if we need to? That's what the Second Amendment is for."

Him: "When the Second Amendment was written, the only guns available were muzzle-loading rifles. Nowadays you can get a semi-automatic weapon and kill everyone in the room."

(Is this the stupidest argument you've ever heard, or is this the stupidest argument you've ever heard? Like the Founding Fathers would not want us to be able to have the most effective weapons available? Like if they had semi-autos when the Constitution was written, the Second Amendment would not have applied to them?)

At this point his phone rang and he had to stop talking to me. Later I told him that I really didn't mean to offend him and that I really like him even though we disagree on this issue. He said it was fine, he wasn't upset with me and he didn't think any less of me because of my position, but he still "just doesn't like guns."

So I stopped trying to convince him. I figured I'd never win with someone like him.

Should I have done that? Should I have taken that opportunity to convince someone, because I know that I could have won the argument if I kept trying. All my responses just blew his arguments right out of the water - logically speaking, he had absolutely no legs to stand on. But I just couldn't bring myself to keep arguing with him, because he is my bass teacher and I respect him a lot and I feel like if I kept hammering at him, he'd just get angry and then it would be awkward whenever I had my next lesson with him.

Man, it frustrates me so much when people have such narrow minded attitudes about guns (just because they don't know anything about them and have no experience with them, in most cases.)

And it really bothers me when these people are Jewish, because Jews out of everyone in the whole world, should be the best-armed people. This particular guy actually lived in Israel and played bass in the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra for a while, and at one point in our argument he actually said "In Israel I felt unsafe all the time, because there were all these young soldiers barely out of high school who were walking around on the streets with M-16s." This comment particularly baffles me. Why on earth would this make anyone feel unsafe? (Unless of course they were a terrorist.)

 

[chris in va]

He needs to read a few home invasion stories...from small towns far away from big cities or in 'bedroom neighborhoods' in the burbs. Actually try and pull up some armed burglaries, etc from your area. People get complacent thinking nothing will ever happen to them.

Hey, I don't blame him...shooting someone can't be a good thing. But if it keeps the good guy alive, so be it.

Just don't show him any facts. People like that operate on emotion.

EDIT: Actually, here's some stats from 2005. Looks like quite a bit more happens there than either of you know.

http://www.hellobloomington.com/crime.cfm

 

[ArcherandShooter]

GH,

You gave it a good try, using logic, reason, and (it sounds like) a calm demeanor.

Give up on this one and don't waste your time. Some people just refuse to be taught.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Golden Hound, the best thing you can do in preparation for the next anti argument is read this phenomenal article. http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

One of your main problems was that you let the anti frame the argument. That's not good. You need to frame the argument.

For an example of argument framing, see this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo

Carolyn McCarthy kept trying to frame the argument, but the reporter pinned her down. But you have to use the right tools to pin the other person down. The article will help with that.

Otherwise, keep up the good work. Just stay calm, thoughtful, and articulate. That speaks volumes.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[BruceRDucer]

Hey Sans Authoritatas

The link you provided contains excellent information.

Thanks for this. I've saved it to my favorites and printed it out for use.

 

[BamaHoosier]

Just because you lead a horse to water doesn't mean he'll drink....What ArcherandShooter said.

 

[Robert Hairless]

When the Second Amendment was written, the only guns available were muzzle-loading rifles. Nowadays you can get a semi-automatic weapon and kill everyone in the room.

When the First Amendment was written the only way to speak to other people was face to face. Nowadays you can get on a telephone, radio, or television and talk to lots of people far away.

The Founding Fathers could not have predicted any of that either. So it seems fair to believe that your Bass teacher thinks that Barack Obama has no Constitutional right to speak to the public except in small meetings in which he uses no means of amplification except a megaphone.

They also could never have conceived of the Internet or of high speed printing presses that could print thousands of newspapers, magazines, books, and advertising pieces in a very short time. Which is why your Bass teacher must believe that Barack Obama has no Constitutional right to address the public in print either.

If your Bass teacher knows anything about American history he is well aware that the Founding Fathers intended that only white males could vote or hold office. No offense intended but why study with a teacher who is both racist and sexist?

 

[Picard]

A free society is not one which is oppressed by its government. As long as the people have the right to bear arms, they cannot be oppressed.

Guns are a reality. It sounds like your teacher just wishes that they did not exist. That just isn't possible.

The best thing I'd say is to offer to take him shoot. It sounds as if he's never held a real gun in his entire life. Tell him to go shooting with you, and then form his own opinions of what a gun can and cannot do.

Excellent link Sans!

 

[Catherine]

You could give him a few links and your thoughts about the God Given Right To Self Defense which is backed up by the SECOND in the USA.

I don't try to give a speech and information to SOME people no matter how well educated or 'smart' they think they are when it comes to some matters. I may mention some things but I don't KEEP IT UP because in many cases it is FUTILE. NO offense! GUNS, politics, fiscal and personal responsibility, self defense issues, war mongering, control issues especially when the CRIMINAL wants to control or hurt YOU!

Best wishes to you. You tried your best at this time.

Side note here: The world has tried to and HAS hurt, injured, raped, stolen from, controlled and KILLED Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, you name it along with Jewish people.

Look how they want to lump all Muslims together... that is wrong too. Good and bad in ALL people.

Sincerely,

Catherine

 

[jakemccoy]

Should I have done that? Should I have taken that opportunity to convince someone, because I know that I could have won the argument if I kept trying. All my responses just blew his arguments right out of the water - logically speaking, he had absolutely no legs to stand on. But I just couldn't bring myself to keep arguing with him, because he is my bass teacher and I respect him a lot and I feel like if I kept hammering at him, he'd just get angry and then it would be awkward whenever I had my next lesson with him.

You did well. However, you won't win anything. He has to see the light himself.

I feel your pain. I've been there. I don't argue with anti-gun sheep anymore. I invite people to come to the range with me for a good time. Otherwise, my time is too valuable to go back and forth with a person who places the value of his life below that of an attacker.

Regards,
Jake

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Whoa, lots of negativity in this thread already.

Personally, I think that this is just the beginning, not the end. There are lots of excellent ways of continuing to attack his illogical beliefs without attacking him directly, just look on THR for a ton of good examples.

He read your letter to the editor and he's the one who brought it up to you and it seems you had a polite discussion which ended well and you both reiterated that it isn't personal.

This is the kind of guy that's worthy of bringing to the light.

Make him an open ended invitation to go shooting and gently bring up the topic again here and there. But it will take time. Invest the time, he sounds like he's worth it and don't ask me why. I dunno why, but in this case, I'd take the time.

 

[Golden Hound]

I think if I offered to take him shooting he would act like I just invited him to a KKK meeting. Like most anti-gun people, I don't think he has ever fired a gun in his life, and the way he talks, I think he'd rather be burned at the stake than do it! I really think I have never met someone who was as dead-set against guns as this guy. What surprises me the most is that he owns about so many basses, guitars, and other instruments that altogether equal tens of thousands of dollars. You'd think he'd be wary of burglars targeting his house trying to steal from his giant collection of instruments.

The weirdest thing about this is that this guy's other job, besides teaching music lessons and playing professionally, is working at a guitar store, which is owned by a friend of my dad's who is a huge gun collector and avid shooter and supporter of the second amendment. I'm surprised he never got interested in guns, working for this guy. If that guy couldn't convince him to be pro-gun, nobody could.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

If that guy couldn't convince him to be pro-gun, nobody could.

Maybe nobody really tried. But hey, I don't know the situation, I could be wrong.

Just trying to answer your question "is it worth it" is all...

 

[mtgale00]

Deleted

 

[telecaster1981]

I'm guessing this guy has all kinds of precautionary items for his instruments. Cases, spare sets of strings, a second bow, a backup bass/guitar/amp, charts on standard tunes, a bag full of guitar picks, etc...you get my drift...

 

[Picard]

Maybe you could ask him what principles he thinks the 2nd Amendment was based on. Why would he think it is outdated if atrocities that the 2nd Amendment would have prevented have happened in the last 50 years? That might have been within his lifetime.

 

[Kentak]

No, it's not worth arguing with a person like this. They are living in another dimension of reality. Best not to be contaminated by their thinking.

K

 

[rainbowbob]

Should I have taken that opportunity to convince someone, because I know that I could have won the argument if I kept trying.

If by "win the argument" you mean bring him over to your/our way of thinking - I'm afraid there is little chance of that happening.

When I first started to CCW (only last year) I too was fired up and going to convince everyone in my family of the righteousness of it all. I like to think of myself as a reasonably intelligent, articulate, persuasive individual. I made good, well reasoned, passionate arguments with facts, statistics, and home invasion stories – the works.

The people I was talking to included my brother, my wife, and my daughter. These people respect me and love me (presumably more than your teacher does you). Nada…zip…nuttin’ doin’. People who have spent a life time believing “Guns are bad”… “Violence is never the answer”… “You’ll just get shot” – are not likely to come around. At least that has been my experience.

As the OP said:

I think if I offered to take him shooting he would act like I just invited him to a KKK meeting. Like most anti-gun people, I don't think he has ever fired a gun in his life, and the way he talks, I think he'd rather be burned at the stake than do it!

There it is…that’s just how some folks are and you only antagonize them and frustrate yourself if you try to argue them out of it. Some antis will eventually see the light on their own – but he doesn’t sound like one of them. Until he or a loved one is assaulted, anyway.

 

[sm]

No.

He is breathing my air, which I don't appreciate.
There is no need wasting your air with this person.

When he hits a bottom, and his butt won't bounce, then he will chose to be receptive.
IF he is still able to breathe that is.

Before the butt won't bounce bottom out blues....he is not receptive, instead in denial.

 

[jakemccoy]

Whoa, lots of negativity in this thread already.

Personally, I think that this is just the beginning, not the end. There are lots of excellent ways of continuing to attack his illogical beliefs without attacking him directly, just look on THR for a ton of good examples.

He read your letter to the editor and he's the one who brought it up to you and it seems you had a polite discussion which ended well and you both reiterated that it isn't personal.

This is the kind of guy that's worthy of bringing to the light.

Make him an open ended invitation to go shooting and gently bring up the topic again here and there. But it will take time. Invest the time, he sounds like he's worth it and don't ask me why. I dunno why, but in this case, I'd take the time.

Please share your real life stories of converting people like the bass teacher so that others can learn, thanks.

 

[Monkeybear]

My brother in law is just like your teacher. Argue self-defense all you want he couldn't get past the fact that bad things actually happened to good people.

Me: What if someone attacks you on the street?
Him: Act confident and they will back down.

What if someone invades your home?
Him:Tell them you will call the police if they don't leave and why would they hurt you unless you anger them?

His sense of reality was warped into believing that no harm would ever befall him because he had not caused anyone trouble. He thought situational awareness was for the paranoid as well.

Hell I have a co-worker who made a point of telling me that she thought that a whistle was an excellent defensive tool. A freakin whistle. She knew I carried firearms and I guess she had hopes of changing my mind it. I imagine she thought I was being as obtuse as I thought she was.

 

[Picard]

Don't give up, no matter what others may say. I would be wary about pushing the issue too much, because then you might really turn him away.

All I can say is read up on the issue, maybe give it a few days to brew in your head and his and take it slow. His views on guns have been building for his whole life. You can't expect him to change them based on one conversation. He can come around, don't lose hope.

 

[sm]

Please share your real life stories of converting people like the bass teacher so that others can learn, thanks.

There is not a "one size fits all" on how to handle those that do not take personal responsibility for safety, and instead feel it is the governments job, or feel if everyone was disarmed, and guns were banned, society would be safer.

I have shared this before, so I apologize to those that have read it before, still for the new folks:

I had a Eng Lit instructor born and raised in the UK, now a US citizen.
She was against guns, for gun control, and supported the ideology of the UK.
She also made it a point to cram this down the throat of all her students.

I was the eldest person in that class, and there were others like me, that were CCW-ers, Pro Gun, and shooters.

I am a Southern Boy, and Rebel, so I rebelled and others of like kind did as well.

That instructor based her curricula, on brainwashing and indoctrinating students to her ideology.

Naturally some students agreed with her, and some were on the fence.
Class was "interesting" at times...

Now some of the students as I shared were pretty hard headed and supported her, and attacked me and mine every opportunity they could.
Two ladies did...

Many of our class attended a Live Theatre performance and this area downtown changes drastically after the sun goes down.

Me and mine arrived early and parked vehicles closer, and we were CCW-ing.
Play ends, it is dark and these two ladies had parked some distance away.

They asked if I and mine would escort them out as the were afraid.

"Flip a coin to see whom gets raped while the other dials 911" I replied, and I turned and walked off.

Others in my party , of like kind ran to catch up with me and some said I was a bit too cold and heartless.
I mentioned one cannot change people, places and things, the only thing a person can change is themselves.

Those two gals pleaded, begged, cried for the Theartre security to walk them out to "way over there" and Security said, they could not, being on contract for the Theatre.
Except one Security did...break the rules and walked them out.

Youths, were out, vile and ugly things said and implied as these three trekked that distance...

Monday Morning on campus they are both there.
There are madder than all get out at me!
Here they come running and cussing en route and just lit into me...one left, the other just broke down and cried into my shoulder.

That cell phone and 911 was not comforting, security does not have to walk you out, those cameras were not comforting...

She and I visited, she apologized for being on the side of Instructor, and some of the bad things she had said to me and mine in class.
She apologized for cussing me out hitting me,and getting make-up on my shirt.

I handed her off to the ladies in that class...
"Oh no you don't! Ladies are fine, but I want you to assist me as well!

She changed sides in that class, that morning.
She got lessons, private lessons, obtained a CCW and became active in RKBA.

The other girl?
Still in denial that semester, and really hated my guts, serious case of hate toward me, and for what I said and how I acted.

About a year later, her younger sister was attacked, some punks come up from behind, shoved her in b/t two park cars and matters got serious, and hands went where they should not, and her blouse ripped...and Lady Luck showed and the punks stopped , and ran when a car, out of the blue showed up to turn around , or something.

That was the "bottom" it took for the other girl, to realize all the things she had been advocating, being for, and believing to unravel.
Denial balloon burst...and she got with the other girl from that night at the Play, and she too is now pro gun and active in RKBA.

Not her ordeal, her younger sister being in a situation.

It takes what it takes - and everyone has a different bottom they have to hit.


s

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Please share your real life stories of converting people like the bass teacher so that others can learn, thanks.

I haven't yet been put into that position, but there are many on THR that have, and have "converted" them. Look around, I'm sure you've read the stories.

I guess my mistake was in answering the OP's question which was, apparently, already decided and a foregone conclusion.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Heck no, Golden Hound! That guy wasn't worth the breath it took to say what you said! Why did you even bother to waste your time like that?

Good on ya for trying though! Everyone says that anti's never change their mind, after all. Unless, of course, they get beat up or something, then they see right quick that we were right all along!