Is it worth it to try to argue with someone like this?

[Standing Wolf]

Man, it frustrates me so much when people have such narrow minded attitudes about guns (just because they don't know anything about them and have no experience with them, in most cases.)

There is no leftism without ignorance.

 

[Sato Ord]

Give your teacher this site.

http://www.jpfo.org/

I think they make the case quite well, and not just for Jews either.

 

[The Tourist]

I agree with the "no one size fits all" concept of debating. Heck, most times I cannot even attempt a consensus within my own groups.

For example, in Wisconsin, we have Democrats that voted for CCW, and Republicans who voted against it.

Not all bikers are as freedom loving as you might think. I once got a smoking hot letter of criticism from a biker who insisted my "helmet/freedom" stance was killing people.

However, my minister's wife once stopped me at a party and asked for recommendations in a self-defense pistol she could carry.

Personally, I'm no different from the great unwashed. I'm dumping another gun forum simply because of the bizarre and child-like attitude I feel has crept into serious discussions. That makes me one of the folks who is closed minded on some issues.

Parts is parts.

 

[pbearperry]

I truly believe that certain folks have been raised as sheep and thats that.They go through life never wondering if today is the day they get slaughtered or not and when that day does arrive,they stand there and get whacked.There is no hope for them,and if I ever get attacked again in life,I pray that I am not surrounded by sheep.

 

[XDKingslayer]

No, there is no use in talking to this person. As far as I'm concerned, any Jew that is against owning guns is not capable of learning a lesson. Period.

 

[RX-178]

An approach that I might try if I were in your position, GH (and have used before with very good results occasionally), is to momentarily sidestep the issue of concealed carry and self defense.

Just offer to take your Bass Teacher to the range and let him try out a few different weapons. That's a great way to at least get them curious about what firearms are like from the standpoint of a law-abiding citizen, and as a natural progression of this, you would be able to instruct them in basic firearms handling and range safety.

Unless your teacher is completely unfamiliar with the concept of personal responsibility, he will find something to relate to in the experience.

 

[The Tourist]

not capable of learning a lesson

There, you just put your finger on main thrust of this debate!

Personally I want to choose my own destiny. However, an equal number of people believe that if a "certain corporal" never had the Luger he used when he jumped onto a beer-house table and fired into the ceiling, the world would actually be safer.

Perceptions.

I know full grown men that are afraid of driving a full-dress Harley. And I know some 110 pound women who own those bikes.

 

[jakemccoy]

Golden Hound,

I agree that his views on guns should have no bearing on whether you keep him as a teacher. I play piano and drums. I couldn’t have cared less about my teachers’ views on gun rights or any other important real life issue.

Most of the best musicians in the world are some pretty wild, reprehensible people. We forgive them because they play as if they have direct links to God. Yes, you may be able to find a bassist who thinks like Ron Paul. Then again, you'll probably have to resign yourself to playing like an average high school freshman.

You made a mistake by engaging him in such a controversial topic. You should have quickly scanned his stance on the issue, and then cut the conversation off by saying something like, "Honestly, Bob, I'm here to learn bass from you because I respect you for that; I'm not here to debate politics, religion or any other polarizing issues; I play bass to get my mind off these issues actually."

All is not lost. You will have more opportunities to stunt or redirect the conversation in the future.

Have you ever seen that quiet music student who's crappy at first but turns out to be phenomenal a few years later? I have. The student got good because he shut his trap, hunkered down and practiced. In no time, he passed up all the so-called talented musicians who got distracted by other things.

If you were me, you would stay focused on the music and would take advantage of this opportunity to become a good musician and nothing else.

Regards,
Jake

 

[csmkersh]

Sam:
Really? He should hope someone gets mugged?

No, not really. It's just a response to the old joke that a conservative is a liberal who just got mugged.

IMO, it's a waste of time to convince the teacher. Facts and figures are not going to sway him. It would take some life altering event to possibly cause him to rethink his position of firearms. But then again, maybe not. Fineswine and Chuckles Schumer both have/had carry permits. Fine for them but not for mere citizens. :banghead:
​

 

[crebralfix]

Well, you could always direct a few crackheads and methheads to his house.

I'm sure his attitude will change quickly.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Still, I doubt I'll be able to convince this guy.

Wonderful. You've already defeated yourself. All the rest of the naysayers are now correct -- you shouldn't even bother.

I just don't think it's going to happen. I'd rather focus my efforts on people closer to my own age, who are usually equally ill-informed about guns, but are more open-minded because they're younger.

Younger equals more open-mindedness? It's been MY personal experience that that's really the opposite -- all the younger ones I know of already know everything there is to know about life and aren't afraid to admit it.

But hey, YMMV, and all that, I've been wrong before.

Wonder if you'll take a serious stab then at answering my question: reasonably and thoughtfully, why did you even ask the question in the first place on this forum? Did you just want to hear how right you were all along from the regular THR crowd? Well, you got your wish.

Oh, and by the way, you probably should cut back some on playing the bass. After all, since you're not guaranteed to be a success, you might as well not even bother trying, right?

 

[Rachen]

I have many Jewish friends. And I was able to convince about 70 percent of them to come over on the side of RKBA.

I remember one of them, how I explained to him that RKBA is the most important thing we can ever have.
I basically said: "If this was 1940 in Warsaw and the jackbooted SS thugs come for you and your family, I would be the one on the street with my Mauser K98 blowing scumbags away one after another, so you and your family will have more time to escape. And so what if I am killed in action? I will die happy knowing I saved the lives of my friends". All of my friends with me basically became speechless after I said that.

You just THINK you haven't convinced your professor. When he goes home and goes to sleep, he will very likely replay the conversation you had with him over and over agin. Sometimes, it takes a little while for them to realize the facts.

Don't give up when you feel that the other party is not understanding it. Denial is an innate human expression when faced with something new. However, don't pressure them to think too quickly either. Give them time to think about the facts before you present them again.

 

[jimbob86]

Don't listen to the naysayers. Unless your Bass teacher is a hypocritical idealogue like your Kennedys, Schumers and Feinsteins, you may have a chance as long as he's willing to listen to what you have to say and talk about it in a reasonably grown-up fashion.

Such idealogues (Kennedy/Schumer/Feinstein/etc.) can afford to be such- they have armed bodyguards and walled and gated compounds to keep them safe. Regular schmoes like you and your instructor have to either take care of your own security or just blindly hope for the best.

Don't actively try to convert him. There are none so blind as them that have eyes and will not see. Telling them "Look!" every five minutes will only cause them to shut their eyes tighter. Just keep your arguement in plain view. He may see the light. Or not.

 

[rainbowbob]

WARNING: Thread drift...

...And so what if I am killed in action? I will die happy knowing I saved the lives of my friends". All of my friends with me basically became speechless after I said that...

Rachen:

I'm not surprised your friends were speechless.

How do you believe that firing off a few rounds in the street before you are blown away would result in the salvation of your friends? It does not necessarily follow that your "heroic" death = their saved lives.

 

[Rachen]

I'm not surprised your friends were speechless.

How do you believe that firing off a few rounds in the street before you are blown away would result in the salvation of your friends?

First of all, I was trying to convert a persistent anti, and I succeeded in doing that. They were friends of mine since elementary school and I want them to be safe in life. First I tried the usual "when guns are banned only criminals will have them" business, but it didn't work. So I said what was on my mind. And that really worked.

Second, I have an original Mauser K98. With full power 8mm loads from Mitchells, loaded in the same way as they were in the 1930s, I can hit targets all the way out to 500 yards, reliably, scope or no scope. When a convoy of Nazis come rumbling through a narrow east European street, several extremely well aimed rounds fired from an attic or rooftop would have seriously messed up their day. Of course, one man with a Mauser would do practically nothing to stem a Nazi convoy, but he could inflict some terrific casualties upon them. And imagine the confusion and panic that would overwhelm the Nazi ranks momentarily when suddenly, their numbers start dropping all over the place.

 

[Rachen]

Oh yeah, and is it me, or has Godwin's Law been proven correct, again?

 

[rainbowbob]

...has Godwin's Law been proven correct...

Dare I ask...what IS Godwin's law?

 

[Rachen]

Godwin's Law says that the longer an Internet forum discussion lasts, the greater the chance that someone will bring up the issue of Nazis/the Holocaust/ Hitler. The exception to this theory is that if the topic of the thread IS ALREADY about World War II, the Holocaust, and related topics, Godwin's law won't apply.

Well, this thread already begins with discussions about the Holocaust and Warsaw Ghetto uprising, so I am not sure if Godwin's Law is applicable.

Very confusing here.

 

[Deanimator]

"That was a different time. We're not living in World War II Germany. We're safe here. Our government is not going to harm us."

That's an incredibly ignorant and short-sighted attitude.

I'll bet most of the German Jews murdered by the Nazis, had you asked them in 1917, would have said none of that EVER could have happened to the Jews of Germany. After all, there were Jews in high positions in the government. One of the major figures in chemical warfare was a Jew. And there were any number of Jewish aces in the German Air Service. If anyone in 1890 had to predict WHERE a Holocaust would take place, they'd have first said, "Russia" and then "France". It wasn't the German Army that sent Dreyfus to Devil's Island.

Genocide against the Jews of the United States isn't likely. It wasn't likely against the Jews of Germany either...

 

[Deanimator]

Well, this thread already begins with discussions about the Holocaust and Warsaw Ghetto uprising, so I am not sure if Godwin's Law is applicable.

Godwin's "Law" is NEVER applicable to ANYTHING.

As I once told Godwin himself, it's the way the ignorant (and smug) seek to avoid the lessons which history teaches the educated.

 

[Rachen]

Genocide against the Jews of the United States isn't likely. It wasn't likely against the Jews of Germany either...

Great point there Deanimator. When one says: "It won't happen here", he doesn't know history.

Only constant vigilance will keep evil from rearing it's ugly head ANYWHERE, not folks who sit around reassuring themselves saying "Oh, that was long time ago, it won't happen here". To say such a thing is PURE, UNDILUTED FOOLISHNESS.

Also, even before the Holocaust, there were terrible pogroms against the Jews of Europe, many, many unspeakable crimes against humanity committed against Jews during the late nineteenth century, and all because the victims were Jewish.

 

[Rachen]

As I once told Godwin himself, it's the way the ignorant (and smug) seek to avoid the lessons which history teaches the educated.

I completely agree with that too. When people talk about the Holocaust and it's related topics frequently, it means that they remember history, and they want others to remember history too. Remembering history is how to ensure a safe future.

 

[Deanimator]

How do you believe that firing off a few rounds in the street before you are blown away would result in the salvation of your friends?

How do you believe that allowing yourself to be whipped onto a boxcar, shipped cross country like an animal, herded into a gas chamber then cremated would result in the salvation of your friends?

I may not be able to stop somebody from murdering me, my family and my friends, but ABSOLUTELY my last priority is making sure that the people trying to do it DON'T get hurt.

Of course you may not have heard of Sobibor and what happened there.

 

[Deanimator]

Personally I want to choose my own destiny. However, an equal number of people believe that if a "certain corporal" never had the Luger he used when he jumped onto a beer-house table and fired into the ceiling, the world would actually be safer.

Some imbecile in usenet once said to me that lack of gun control allowed the Nazis to be armed and "outgun" the German police. I told him I thought that was a bit odd, since by that time the Nazis WERE the police and their weapons came FROM police armories. It's a tossup as to who's more ignorant of German history, anti-gunners or neo-Nazis. It'd be neck and neck... if they had necks.

 

[Deanimator]

Most of the best musicians in the world are some pretty wild, reprehensible people.

Richard Wagner for instance...