Is it worth it to try to argue with someone like this?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Have him check out this link:
Oleg's page It may not change his mind, but on the other hand, it might.

Oh, and I think you should tell him that firearms are just too important to you to associate with someone who's so against them, and that you'll be finding a new bass teacher.
 
I got into a debate with my bass teacher
Click to expand...

Have you considered switching instruments?

:D

Just kidding.

I think you did well. You have to consider that most people don't instantly "convert" but, over time, they just might begin to see the errors of their previously-held beliefs.
You've sowed the seeds well, so maybe in time they will begin to bear fruit.
 
I'd look at it as a "seed planting" conversation. You kept it civil, made good points, and he refused to open his mind enough to see the other side.
This doesn't mean that down the road he might not change his mind, and remember some of the stuff you said, when he reads and article about a home invasion or murder of an unarmed person.
 
The best thing I'd say is to offer to take him shoot. It sounds as if he's never held a real gun in his entire life. Tell him to go shooting with you, and then form his own opinions of what a gun can and cannot do.
Click to expand...
This is a good idea, if he seems to soften up his position at some point. Tell him "I'll tell you what. If I take you to the range, my treat, and show you how to safely handle a firearm, and shoot it accurately, and you STILL think guns are random killing machines which result in death and destruction no matter who has them, I'll drop the subject."
See if he still thinks any joe shmoe could "take out the entire room" with your .45. Ask him what he thinks might happen if an armed citizen (point to someone handling a weapon safely and responsibly in the lane nearby) was defending him/herself as he attempted this. See if he thinks the people at the range are acting like spree killers waiting for their big chance. My guess is that that will seem like a silly idea, especially if there are women or fathers and sons, etc. You might luck out and see a mother/daughter combo, as I sometimes do at the range.
 
Do that too! :p Better yet, take the nephews and nieces along with the bass teacher!
 
If you are going to talk to him about guns you may as well go talk to a tree. Sounds like they both have the same IQ, and It likely will get you the same results.
 
Many artists and musicians like college professors are part of the "enlightened/progressive" mindset. Guns are beneath them and people that carry them are neanderthals hell bent on violence. Stick to bass discussions as you will become very frustrated with his purely emotional and irrational anti-gun arguments.
 
Don't listen to the naysayers. Unless your Bass teacher is a hypocritical idealogue like your Kennedys, Schumers and Feinsteins, you may have a chance as long as he's willing to listen to what you have to say and talk about it in a reasonably grown-up fashion.

He has been the victim of years - possibly decades - of disinformation and prejudice. He did not get this way overnight and you are not going to overcome that overnight.

Most people do not think based on logic and reason; they think based on emotion. If you are going to connect with him, it is going to be on that level. Respect his feelings, empathize with them and share them when you can. Treat his objections with respect, but meet them head-on with facts that you can doccument. Whatever you do, do not get angry and do not raise your voice, no matter what he does.


Contemplating a paradox is a technique used in religious mysticism to break open the earth-bound mind in order to allow it to grasp a higher spiritual truth. You can apply that here, too. Get him to think about things like: "If guns aren't useful for defense, then why do the police use them?" or try to get him to imagine someone like this Cho guy at Virginia Tech turning away and going home to sulk because of a "no guns" sign.

I see that you are both Jewish, and you've already mentioned the Holocaust. Imagine how history might have been different if the Gestapo had been met with a shotgun blast instead of meek compliance
 
The last time a conversation like that started for me with a teacher from my mom's school, I pulled my weapon, put it on the coffee table, and yelled shoot kill fire etc.... The teacher looked at me kinda weird and asked what I was doing. I said if guns kill why isnt mine behaving. He cocked his head to the side slack jawed, and started to utter a sylable three times but the words eluded him. I invited him to the range and we blew off a brick of .22 lr. He bought a gun the following month.
 
All my responses just blew his arguments right out of the water - logically speaking, he had absolutely no legs to stand on.
Click to expand...

You blew away his arguments in your mind - not in his. If you want to persuade, you need to convince him, not yourself (or all the people who already agree with you on THR).

A lot of folks on THR consider seem to confuse convincing themselves that they are right with persuading someones else that they are right. Convincing yourself that you are right is generally not a high bar - but it doesn't really do much good either. :)

I suspect laying off the arguments/rhetoric and inviting him to go shooting is the best way to proceed. Don't make it, "I'll take your shooting and you'll be convinced I am right." That's silly - not many folks enter re-education camps voluntarily.

Invite him because it's fun, and because he maybe curious about guns. Most folks are a little curious about guns. Don't indoctrinate him with a 2nd Amendment rant on the way to the range - talk about the safety rules, maybe something about how the weapon functions.

If he goes to the range with you and has fun, you're 90% of the way there.

Mike
 
Many artists and musicians like college professors are part of the "enlightened/progressive" mindset. Guns are beneath them and people that carry them are neanderthals hell bent on violence.
Click to expand...

So if I consider myself progressive and enlightened, you want me to sell my guns and resign from the NRA?

Strong argument.

Mike
 
So if I consider myself progressive and enlightened, you want me to sell my guns and resign from the NRA?

Strong argument.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing anything. "Progressive and enlightened" are far left code words for liberal and anti-gun. I really don't care what you do with your guns or NRA membership. :rolleyes:
 
Oh, and I think you should tell him that firearms are just too important to you to associate with someone who's so against them, and that you'll be finding a new bass teacher.
Click to expand...

This I can't do. Because firearms are not as important to me as is keeping up good relations with the people in my life. And also, there is no better bass teacher than this guy in town (and this is a very big music town because we have the IU School of Music, which many say is the best in the country.) The only bass players and teachers here who are above this guy are the bass professors at the Music School.

I mean, if this was just some random guy who I didn't care about, I wouldn't have a problem not associating with him, but this guy is not just my teacher, he's also one of my dad's best friends and the bassist in his band, which makes him one of my best friends because I'm very close with my dad and I hang out with him and his band all the time. He really is a very, very good guy. That's why this bothers me, because I hate it when an otherwise intelligent, open-minded, good guy has one very bothersome and irrational belief. But I can't just write him off.

Still, I doubt I'll be able to convince this guy. I just don't think it's going to happen. I'd rather focus my efforts on people closer to my own age, who are usually equally ill-informed about guns, but are more open-minded because they're younger.
 


You're wasting your time talking about firearms with this person. Since you can't/won't move on to a different teacher, don't talk about firearms with him and hope he gets mugged a change in attitude.

My DiL in VA was anti-gun until her oldest daughter had problems at the pool and the family was threatened. My son now has a VA carry permit and packs a Kahr K9 I gave him. :)
​
 
I know a guy who HAS been mugged, at GUNPOINT, in New Orleans, and he's still anti-gun and viciously anti-CC.

Some people will just never understand. It's like a guy that I know who never wore a helmet when he rode his bike, then got hit by a car, hit his head on the pavement and had his jaw broken, spent 4 months recovering with his jaw wired shut - and then went right back to riding his bike with no helmet.
 
If this guy thinks that just because he locks his doors and windows he is safe from evil, then there is nothing you can do.

If only everyone had that kind of insight. I mean, all I had to do the whole time is just lock my door? I mean why didn't I figure this out sooner??
 
Last edited:
Find another teacher. Its too bad your's is so closed minded. No sense in giving anti's your hard earned money.
 
Well, come on now, I'm not just going to completely write off this guy just because of this one issue. It's possible to get along with others even if you have different views - I just wish I could talk some sense into him.
 
I know, I tried using that argument. "Different place and time," he said - as if it couldn't happen again under any circumstances. Let us not forget that Hitler was democratically elected.

There's no way I'm ever going to turn this guy into a CC-er...the most I could hope for is to convince him that it's sensible to have a home defense weapon.
 
...don't talk about firearms with him and hope he gets mugged...
Click to expand...

Sam:
Really? He should hope someone gets mugged? :banghead:

If that is supposed to be funny - it isn't. Not even if you had used smilies :) and winkies. ;)

I know and love many people that think like his bass teacher. Should I wait until they get mugged and then gleefully tell them "I told you so"?

The OP said:
It's possible to get along with others even if you have different views - I just wish I could talk some sense into him.
Click to expand...

I just wish we could talk some sense into some of the folks here at THR.

Folks (you know who you are) listen carefully: People that don't believe everything you do and think exactly like you do are not necessarily the evil spawn of satan.
 
I have found it to be very effective to just be openly pro-gun and make no attempt to change anybodys mind. Then when they come after me, I make my arguments and they are much more open to hearing my arguments at that point. Nobody wants to be sold to or preached at.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
quick!! help me with some arguments!!!
Replies
10
Views
595
v35
v35
F
  • Locked
very irritating discussion
2 3 4 5
Replies
117
Views
5K
Jorg Nysgerrig
J
R
  • Locked
Proper way to show someone your firearm
2 3
Replies
59
Views
3K
41magsnub
4
W
  • Locked
Student needs help with anti 2a prof.....
2
Replies
40
Views
3K
Sunray
S
W
  • Locked
How do you argue with someone like this?
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
Feanaro
Feanaro
Back
Top