Is rifle marksmanship still valid?

[Garandimal]

"What then is a good field marksman?

In my opinion, a man who can hit a tea cup at 100 meters with his first shot,
from a field position, in a 5 second interval is a good shot.

Try this test on yourself, but do not call for witnesses.
People who talk about good shots are usually terrible liars."​

- LtCol Jeff Cooper - Vol 10, No. 6



​

GR

 

[CapnMac]

What's golf?

Well, my late grandfather used to contend it's the word they used because "all the other 'four letter words' were taken."
Said as he drove a cart around the Country Club he helped found.

 

[CapnMac]

Just because a person resides within the confines of urbanized metropolitan areas does not mean that the ability to shoot out to 400m does not have merit of its own.

I happen to know some folk who are dedicated to better being able to nap flint, which does not have a lot of 'modern culture' applications. Makes them happy and gives them purpose in their lives. Hard to ask for more than that.

 

[Texas10mm]

If you hunt on the east coast you might have a point. However if you come out west you definitely need good marksmanship if you want to be successful. Im not much of a hunter but my friends here in Az regularly make 300-500 yard shots on deer, elk, and goats.

I took the family to the Grand Canyon a couple weeks ago. The trip was 3 hours in the truck and 2 hours on a train. The majority of that trip was traveling through hundreds of square miles of empty land.

Then you can add in the last 17 years of war. Whether it's the long distance engagements in the open farm lands and mountains of Iraq and Afghanistan or threading a bullet through a window at 200 meters in the urban areas, marksmanship still is a used skill.

You would be surprised how many of those 300-500 yard shots are actually inside 200 yards. Most people are terrible at estimating distance. Unless you're genetically gifted seeing a deer at 200 yards or more for most people is almost impossible. Trying to find a deer at 500 yards against a background with the naked eye is mental masturbation.

 

[Varminterror]

Unless you're genetically gifted seeing a deer at 200 yards or more for most people is almost impossible. Trying to find a deer at 500 yards against a background with the naked eye is mental masturbation.

This is absolutely silly. You cannot be serious? Saying a person can’t see a deer at 500yrds is just ridiculous.

 

[LoonWulf]

This is absolutely silly. You cannot be serious? Saying a person can’t see a deer at 500yrds is just ridiculous.

Agreed. Ive had very little trouble picking out deer at well over a mile....some days convincing my self to walk over there to get one is another trick..........perhaps Axis deer arnt particularly good at hiding tho.

You would be surprised how many of those 300-500 yard shots are actually inside 200 yards. Most people are terrible at estimating distance. Unless you're genetically gifted seeing a deer at 200 yards or more for most people is almost impossible. Trying to find a deer at 500 yards against a background with the naked eye is mental masturbation.

and if someone mistakes a 200yd shot for a 500yds shots, they are gonna miss, badly. If they DO hit the thing, that animal just has terrible luck.

 

[.308 Norma]

Unless you're genetically gifted seeing a deer at 200 yards or more for most people is almost impossible. Trying to find a deer at 500 yards against a background with the naked eye is mental masturbation.

Nonsense. It's a little over 200 yards from our dining room table to our back fence. We see deer, coyotes, foxes and even rockchucks on the back part of our place weekly. And if you really think finding "a deer at 500 yards against a background with the naked eye is mental masturbation" come on up for a visit. Bring your binoculars and/or spotting scope so you can see the deer and elk I point out to you at 500, 600, or even 1000 yards using my naked eyes.

Most people are terrible at estimating distance.

I'll agree with that. But then most people haven't spent a lifetime hunting big game and/or competing in some type of long-range target shooting either.

 

[Newtosavage]

I don't see Justin Rose taking out people shooting guns at him with golf balls, at any range, much less 500+ yards. Just sayin'.



Exactly.

Keep dreamin. Keep preppin'

 

[C-grunt]

I agree that many people are not good at range estimation. However the guys Im talking about are not those people.

Here in Az our forests are not super thick and many times deer and elk hunting have you shooting from one hill side to another. I spot animals, usually wild mules we have north of Phoenix, at hundreds of yards all the time and Im not even looking for them. Actually spotted several mules at the range the other day at over 1000 yards and another group at around 400 yards. Add on to that my buddies hunt with laser range finders and other good equipment such as Swarovski binos, custom rifles, etc... they dont have issues with finding and accurately ranging animals.

 

[Texas10mm]

Agreed. Ive had very little trouble picking out deer at well over a mile....some days convincing my self to walk over there to get one is another trick..........perhaps Axis deer arnt particularly good at hiding tho.



and if someone mistakes a 200yd shot for a 500yds shots, they are gonna miss, badly. If they DO hit the thing, that animal just has terrible luck.

You can see deer at a mile...against a wooded background? Or silhouetted against the sky?

 

[EIB0879]

Yes marksmanship is still valid for those of us that shoot. As always , for the rest of the population, not so much.

 

[Hookeye]

Lots of people can't shoot well at 100 yards.
Even long time deer hunters.
I don't get it.

As for seeing deer..............I have an eye condition, nerve deal, my left eye doesn't turn.
So quite a few folks evidently think that affects the lenses of my eyes (it doesn't).

One engineer heard me talking to my bud and told another tech that I was full of it.
I did not know this til later.

Tech heard me talk of bowfishing, asked to tag along (he a shooter).
Driving to a res...............I crossed a bridge at decent speed and said "there's one".
Water down for dam work, that creek had dried enough to offer a large containment.
I saw ripples in the shallow water past the sandbar and knew what it was.

Pulled over, grabbed recurve from back seat and said "c'mon".

Hopped the guardrail and onto the sandbar, untethered, about 20 yards going away. Nailed it.
(containment area- no need for string).

On the way back home I said "deer". Saw an orange dot appear in treeline, past erosion strip.
Was driving along blabbing and saw the change in the shadow (stepped into sun).
He said "where?" so I slowed, did a U turn and drove back and parked.................said watch out there.
over 600 yards.

Deer again moved into sun.

Back at work Monday he told the little jerk of an engineer that "he's legit".

People that can't see, or shoot............don't believe others can.

I consider that more of a character flaw than an issue of ignorance.
Caught heck like that for years w my eye deal.

Had my fill of it.

 

[Hookeye]

Surprised to hear that two coworkers, long time deer hunters......one never shot past 50 yards, even w rest.
The other shot one at 75, one time, with a rest. All else under 50.

Long guns.

No wonder when I told em of the little 8 pt I shot w Superredhawk at 150...I got the blank stare.

You tell em of reloading, HP rifle shooting chucks at 250-350 yards and they just scratch their heads.
Hard to find a long field around here, back then, but esp these days.

Heck............I was doing that in jr high.

Deer at 100 is a gimme.

Should be.

As long as folks stay within their limitations, I guess it's OK.
But like archery, longer shots in practice show errors. Fix it on the range.

Longer shooting will help make you a better shot all around.

Maybe my coworkers would be better shots, capable of extending their distance............I don't know why the psychological deal of 100 yards.
One has a farm, can shoot there..........I just don't get it.

They refuse to try.

 

[Picher]

Rifle marksmanship is still relevant to some just as golf is relevant to some. That list can go and on, fishing, photography, cooking, quilting, etc. Pick your pastimes and enjoy life. I also love to take "outdoors" pictures, including animal photos and have played golf a lot in the past...not so much at this age, but my daughter married a golf course owner so I "have to" do it once in a while.

Personally I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks of my pastimes. I love to shoot both rifles and pistols and intend to keep doing it as long as I can pick up either and press the trigger...relevant for today or not. We rarely shoot shotguns for fun here; only about twice a year to tune-up for fall, but love to hunt grouse and woodcock.

I love shooting rifles and handguns, but don't do it much during the winter, even though my buddy and I go to the Club's indoor range a few times. I'm very lucky to live next to my son and his 200 acre forest/blueberry field property. I shoot off the porch sometimes and keep varmints off bird feeders, etc.

We can shoot up to 450 yards across blueberry fields, but my benchrest is set up in a wooded hedgerow where I normally shoot 100 and 200 yards, but have gotten deer, coyotes, crows and a bobcat in that field (not from the bench).

Still, homes are encroaching on the safety perimeter and I have to be careful to shoot in safer directions, even when hunting, because there are houses within a half-mile in a few directions, including my house. I'm especially conscious about ricochets, due to the many boulders, seen or unseen.

(I should be sorry for the long post, but...)

 

[BigSteve57]

This is absolutely silly. You cannot be serious? Saying a person can’t see a deer at 500yrds is just ridiculous.

I have to agree!
These deer were 600yds from me I'd guess. The photo doesn't begin to do the scene justice but you could see these deer plain as day. I know people that I think could hit one with open sights shooting offhand. Not me.
However laying prone, rifle on bipod and with a scope at 8-16 power I'd attempt the shot and I believe I would have a very good chance of an ethical kill.

 

[LoonWulf]

You can see deer at a mile...against a wooded background? Or silhouetted against the sky?

Moving along forested ridges, open areas, even in scrub brush if the light hits them right. Starionary sheep and goats on lava rock are harder to pick out than Axis deer.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Urban expansion? In the section I am living in (that's a square mile for you cityfolk) there are two households and they are five hundred yards apart sharing the same lane. The section on the other side of the gravel road has one household. Next to the White County acreage there are four sections adjacent to each other that has zero households.

Keep in mind that when people move to the cities they are no longer where they were. When they move out of their houses out in the country, the farmers that by them are generally more interested in cropland than housing. In my short lifetime I have seen over sixteen houses torn down and corn grows where Ma and Pa once raised their six children. Keep in mind that Indiana has recently allowed the use of real rifles for deer hunting where before we were only allowed black powder or shotgun because of population concerns. That in itself seems to suggest that urban expansion is something of a local problem. Long-range riflery is still alive and well along the thickets bordered by eighty acres of harvested corn or soybeans.

 

[Garandimal]

Field Marksmanship - out West, has become about as relevant as the abacus.

Can't remember the last time I was at a range out there, shooting on a mat, and saw another shooter doing the same.

Mostly just get looks from all the bench-dwellers - like I was practicing witchcraft.




GR

 

[Hookeye]

I think HP rifle became legal in Indiana due to the study

http://www.ihea-usa.org/_assets/documents/AFWA_Presentation_9-18-07.pdf

Shotgun advancements removed the difference in safety.

 

[Grunt]

What's golf?

A waste of a perfectly good rifle range!

 

[coloradokevin]

In a world of shrinking yardage due to urban expansion is the art of the rifle still valid to our society as only a small percentage is able to use a rifle to its fullest extent meaning anything past 100 yards anything less is just wasteful of potential.

Well, I think that depends. More of the population is concentrated in cities today, but there is still a lot of open land out there in this vast nation. I live in the most populous metropolitan area within probably 600 miles of my location, and I still routinely go out and shoot beyond 1,000 yards (but obviously not here in the metro area).

 

[Texas10mm]

I have to agree!
These deer were 600yds from me I'd guess. The photo doesn't begin to do the scene justice but you could see these deer plain as day. I know people that I think could hit one with open sights shooting offhand. Not me.
However laying prone, rifle on bipod and with a scope at 8-16 power I'd attempt the shot and I believe I would have a very good chance of an ethical kill.
View attachment 836258
View attachment 836259

That's not against a wooded background. Those are dark against a light background.

 

[Hookeye]

Local super duper chuck popper guy was with my dad when he nailed one at close to 300.
It was NOT 300 yards, was this side of it.
Yet the other guy was jumping up and down excited claiming it was 400.

Yeah, be wary of some folks yardage estimation.
This before the internet, where keyboards multiply by 1.5x.

 

[Hookeye]

I shot IBO for years so have my step at really really close to a yard
Also checked field dims.
So yardages known........and pretty much on the money.

Was with a coworker on one beanfield, trucks parked in shade on one end.
Chuck comes out 2nd rise. 275 yards.
Coworker asks how far.........I say 275 and blast it.

We pace it and I think it was 277, maybe 278. That close.
While looking the critter over (no exit, 70gr Nosler BT .243 win).
Another varmint pops up between our trucks.

My coworker goes "how far is that?".

My reply..................."if it's 275 from there to here, it's probably pretty close to 275 from here to there".

 

[Hookeye]

On spotting critters....

Gotta know where to look, how to look, and what to look for.
Even with that, good peepers is a plus.

For some spotting animals is natural.
Think it can also be learned...........but some poor souls never figure it out.

Got the jump on my deer last yr because I thought I saw an ear in a blowdown across the creek about 75 yards or so.