Is rifle marksmanship still valid?

[Laphroaig]

These deer were 600yds from me I'd guess. The photo doesn't begin to do the scene justice but you could see these deer plain as day. I know people that I think could hit one with open sights shooting offhand. Not me.
However laying prone, rifle on bipod and with a scope at 8-16 power I'd attempt the shot and I believe I would have a very good chance of an ethical kill.

If you're going to attempt that shot, you had better do more than guess at the range. I agree that many would have a good chance of killing the animal. But there is also some chance that the deer would be gut shot or hit in some other nonvital place and left to die. In my mind, ethics means weighing the odds and maybe passing up a questionable shot.

There might be people who could consistently hit a deer at 600 yards standing. They are all in the Olympics.

 

[Hookeye]

Some people guess yardage better than others LOL.
600 might be +/-25 yards, or +/-50, or even +/-100 depending on skill set.

Even without a rangefinder, one's scope reticle should be of some help.

I have never shot anything at 600 yards. There is a range that goes to 800 I think (at least 700) not too far away.
Might have to try it out
Bipods of course.
From bench I'll add a rear bag (suede front bag I've had for years).

 

[Hookeye]

Don't most folks taking long rips use bipods or their backpack?
Don't think anybody is saying long shots offhand are cool.

Pops took a silly rip at a chuck offhand, nailed it, 450 yards.

Me? I hate missing, really really hate missing.
Never have flipped a bullet in hope of hitting my critter.
I shoot knowing its gonna be dead.

Even when shooting lowly varmints.

I just wouldn't take that shot unless I had a rest.

 

[Hookeye]

Might get a laser rangefinder, if I get a .257 WM rifle.
Might have to try for a Mule deer in the next yr or so.
Don't chuck hunt anymore and my range estimation sucks.
250 or 300? I can't tell.
Not unless I know the field dims.

 

[Texas10mm]

Many years ago when I worked behind a gun counter we had a bunch of mounts in our store. The mounts on the far side were all waterfowl. Teal, wood ducks, pintails, and some Canadian honkers.

Everytime I'd get some waterfowl hunter telling me about the 60 yard shot they made on waterfowl I'd ask them how far way the mounts were. Most hunters would guess between 30-50 yards. Those mounts were exactly 62 feet from where they were standing. That's just under 21 yards for the math impaired. We never had a hunter underestimate the range. Most of the decoy spreads I saw on the river at that time had the kill zone inside 20 yards. If you asked the hunters they would swear it was 30-35 yards out.

Then you would have the sky blasters shooting at waterfowl 100-200 yards away, this was most common with Geese as we were pretty restricted on goose hunting.

I know as a Dragon gunner in the Corps we had range estimation pounded into our thick skulls. Minimum arming range was 71 yards. The actual point of control for most gunners was around the 150 yard mark. Maximum range was 1,000 meters, aka 1093 yards. The Corps didn't want us wasting a $40k missile on a target out of range. Not to worry as we wanted the target as close as possible due to flight profile and flight time. Over 11 seconds to go max range, a USSR tank turret could rotate 180°, aim, and fire the main gun in about half that. Even quicker with the co-ax.

I then moved to the TOW. 3000 meter range. Again range estimation was important as those missiles cost even more.

 

[.308 Norma]

deleted

 

[Hookeye]

Goose hunting..........you learn yardage quick.
No big deal when you hunt the same fields w stuff in them.

Same for deer hunting. Measure stuff ahead of time.

 

[Varminterror]

LRF’s have been around a long time now, readily available and affordable on the market for over 20yrs.

 

[ford8nr]

I'd attempt the shot and I believe I would have a very good chance of an ethical kill.

A very good CHANCE

 

[EIB0879]

10mm I went through the Dragon Trainer's Course at Ft. Benning in 1981. We had all branches represented except the AF. We spent a week just shooting at jeep mounted target boards with the missile simulators.

Toward the end of the course, some engineers from the manufacturer showed up with ten live missiles with inert warheads. They had problems with the missiles grounding out soon after launch when firing off of an M113 APC. They were mounted on a special mount in the commander's hatch.

The first eight missiles grounded out. We had been warned early in the course not to "fly" the missile. There were only 60 small rockets to correct the course so if you were way off course you would use those up pretty fast and lose control of the missile. That is what happened.

I was ninth in the firing order and the engineers pulled me aside and told me to pull back on the left handle as hard as I could right before firing. I almost forgot and pulled back right before the missile left the launcher. The missile dipped and almost grounded out but I corrected and kept it on the tank hull.
First hit of the day!

It was funny that as I was walking back to the stands, all of these SF, Marine, and SEALs that missed were looking at me incredulously. I was a young grunt 2LT. The Colonel that was there and I played them for a while until we told them the trick. The SF guy that fired the 10th missile got a hit also.
also

 

[Texas10mm]

10mm I went through the Dragon Trainer's Course at Ft. Benning in 1981. We had all branches represented except the AF. We spent a week just shooting at jeep mounted target boards with the missile simulators.

Toward the end of the course, some engineers from the manufacturer showed up with ten live missiles with inert warheads. They had problems with the missiles grounding out soon after launch when firing off of an M113 APC. They were mounted on a special mount in the commander's hatch.

The first eight missiles grounded out. We had been warned early in the course not to "fly" the missile. There were only 60 small rockets to correct the course so if you were way off course you would use those up pretty fast and lose control of the missile. That is what happened.

I was ninth in the firing order and the engineers pulled me aside and told me to pull back on the left handle as hard as I could right before firing. I almost forgot and pulled back right before the missile left the launcher. The missile dipped and almost grounded out but I corrected and kept it on the tank hull.
First hit of the day!

It was funny that as I was walking back to the stands, all of these SF, Marine, and SEALs that missed were looking at me incredulously. I was a young grunt 2LT. The Colonel that was there and I played them for a while until we told them the trick. The SF guy that fired the 10th missile got a hit also.
also

In the Marines the Dragon was an infantry weapon. Mounted on our aching backs. It was real easy to ground the missile if you didn't keep the crosshairs on the target.

My complaint was the simulator didn't lose weight like the real item would on firing. Yeah, the weight moved forward but there's a big difference between a 31 lb missile on your shoulder vs a 4 lb tube on your shoulder.

I was hindered by being 6'1" tall. I had to be all scrunched up under that thing. The short guys could just use their legs to hold the front pod straight, I had my knees up around my elbows.

 

[EIB0879]

In the Marines the Dragon was an infantry weapon. Mounted on our aching backs. It was real easy to ground the missile if you didn't keep the crosshairs on the target.

My complaint was the simulator didn't lose weight like the real item would on firing. Yeah, the weight moved forward but there's a big difference between a 31 lb missile on your shoulder vs a 4 lb tube on your shoulder.

I was hindered by being 6'1" tall. I had to be all scrunched up under that thing. The short guys could just use their legs to hold the front pod straight, I had my knees up around my elbows.

I feel you. I was a light infantryman and later officer. We used LPCs (leather personnel carriers) Aka boots to move unless we air assaulted in (and then walked). Dragons were pretty unwieldy when you were breaking brush.

I'm 6'4" so yeah it was a pain shooting. I had to bend my knees when shooting that missile out of the M113.

 

[BigSteve57]

Some people guess yardage better than others LOL.
600 might be +/-25 yards, or +/-50, or even +/-100 depending on skill set.

Even without a rangefinder, one's scope reticle should be of some help.

I have never shot anything at 600 yards. There is a range that goes to 800 I think (at least 700) not too far away.
Might have to try it out
Bipods of course.
From bench I'll add a rear bag (suede front bag I've had for years).

Absolutely I'd laze the range before shooting to be sure.
The way they were just standing and laying down there would give me plenty of time.

600 yards is standard for prone service rifle competitions with open sights no less.
Obviously that's at paper with less of an ethical consideration for a "bad" shot.

EDIT: BTW I wasn't hunting these deer. We were on the way to Elk camp and I thought it would make a great picture with the farm machinery in the foreground, the deer herd in the middle and the mountains (where we were headed) in the background. It was my first time in the area and the distance was guessed by the guys I was riding with after I wondered aloud how far away they were.

 

[BigSteve57]

A very good CHANCE

Well nothing's 100%!

 

[BigSteve57]

If you're going to attempt that shot, you had better do more than guess at the range. I agree that many would have a good chance of killing the animal. But there is also some chance that the deer would be gut shot or hit in some other nonvital place and left to die. In my mind, ethics means weighing the odds and maybe passing up a questionable shot.

There might be people who could consistently hit a deer at 600 yards standing. They are all in the Olympics.

When I set up a stand, assuming there's time, I laze the area to get a sense of things.
I definitely do not want an injured animal !
Elk in that area are taken all the time at 500+ yards but I have no clue how many are injured.
An ethical shot for one is not necessarily an ethical shot for another; that's the very essence of an ethical call.

Not sure what to make of the "all in the Olympics" claim.
I do know some people that I think could pull off such a shot.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If I had the money I would build a 1000 yd range in eastern WA. I think it would be a money maker. There are a lot of people who would use it if it was within a 1/2 hour of a major city. Lots of people I know including myself would shoot LRP if we had a facility to do that. 300 is the max around here and 200 where I shoot. I would like to hone my skills with a 308 at 500 yds but that isn't possible where I live.

The problem I think is that most people who would use a facility like that live in metro areas where it just isn't possible to access those ranges within a reasonable amount of time.

 

[BigSteve57]

If I had the money I would build a 1000 yd range in eastern WA. I think it would be a money maker. There are a lot of people who would use it if it was within a 1/2 hour of a major city. Lots of people I know including myself would shoot LRP if we had a facility to do that. 300 is the max around here and 200 where I shoot. I would like to hone my skills with a 308 at 500 yds but that isn't possible where I live.

The problem I think is that most people who would use a facility like that live in metro areas where it just isn't possible to access those ranges within a reasonable amount of time.

1000 yard or even 500 yard ranges don't grow on trees. I was blessed to have practiced and competed at Ft Meade which has 600 yards and is 30 minutes from where I live. I don't have access to Ft Meade anymore so the nearest long range is Bridgeville, DE. I keep meaning to take a trip there.

 

[Hookeye]

When I only shot 100 yards, I calculated my drop and was nuking chucks past 300 just fine.
Didn't have to actually shoot 300 on a range to connect.

If I get a .257 or 7 mag I'll try some 500 off the bipods, just for fun.
Have never done it.

Farthest I've shot on paper is 225 yards.
Guy gave me a go with his BR rig. Five into .5"

I'm just a hasbeen chuck popper. Now shoot deer.
Am nothing special, pay a little better attention than some I reckon.

 

[Varminterror]

600 yards is standard for prone service rifle competitions with open sights no less.
Obviously that's at paper with less of an ethical consideration for a "bad" shot.

It’s also fired at a target 6ft wide, rather than a deer heart the size of a fist.

 

[BigSteve57]

It’s also fired at a target 6ft wide, rather than a deer heart the size of a fist.

True enough. The entire target is 6' wide but the 7-10 ring is 36" which is what counts in competition.
Not sure what the deer heart size reference is about.
I don't worry about shooting through the heart, just the vitals which are in the 14" range for deer, Elk more.
With a scope, prone and with time to aim I'd take the shot at 600 if I couldn't get closer.
Note that the farthest I ever actually took a deer was probably in the 300 yard range.
I've clobbered groundhogs at 3-400 yards dozens of times.

 

[Hookeye]

LOL, my farthest deer was only 178 yards.
No scope though. Heck, not even a case or shell.
Was old side hammer TC and roundball.
Offhand.
Quartering away.
Hit at left paunch and exited right side of windpipe.
Pinwheeled.

Shame she stopped w a dead tree in background that had a fork to aim at.
Figured that correspond to drop at 175 (which was parking lot to 100 yard bank at my club).
Evidently it was a pretty good guess.

 

[Hookeye]

I sold that reworked Renegade to a coworker, that got around to shooting in some months later.
Came up to me at work all excited, said it was the best shooting MZ he'd ever seen.
Well, duh...........I told him it was a good one.

TC mucked it up, a bud bought it. Using a peep on tang he missed and elk and sold it to me cheap.
Hook wouldn't set snug, barrel channel off a bit depth wise. So I glass bedded it to proper fit, polished the bore and put on the bbl sight.
It would lay em in there after that.

 

[Varminterror]

the 7-10 ring is 36" which is what counts in competition.

[...]

I don't worry about shooting through the heart, just the vitals which are in the 14" range for deer

First - I don’t shoot at anything I don’t believe I can heart shoot. I might expect the lungs, but it’s a means to keep myself honest and set a standard for my maximum range if I plan for the heart.

Secondly - 14” might be bigger than a fist, but sure ain’t 36”. The target feedback is designed for the sight set up we use in service rifle. Big target for acquisition and a 3ft aiming black to nestle on top of our sight post. We might not be able to see the x, but the aiming black promises us it is there. I’d happily hunt deer MUCH farther than I do in the real world if they had big ol’ aiming blacks for reference.

I also haven’t ever worn a Creedmoor jacket in hunting fields, nor had any opportunity for sighters.

I get the point you’re trying to make, guys shoot long range with iron sights... but the conditions make it such there’s very little relevance for it in hunting field marksmanship.

I shot in a jacket for a handful of years, and still enjoy it when I can, but more of my time is spent field shooting in precision rifle matches these days. Even in field type competitions, there remains a big difference in hunting fields vs. competition. Among other stages, I scored 3/3 in around 35 seconds on a howling coyote target at 576yrds yesterday morning with no support other than the top of a fence post, the target no wider than the lungs of a deer, with a 12mph full value wind call. I shot the same rifle I used for my buck last season. In the back of my head, I was thanking the MD for a stage which was easy for me - right in my wheelhouse for position, range, and target. I also went 6/6 on an 18” diamond (12.7” square) from 3 steps of a staircase of tractor tires, at 578yrds with a 10mph full value in under a minute - again, absolutely right up my alley for target size, range, and obstacle in competition - and similarly sized to deer vitals, but in more time-stressed shooting conditions. Relatively easy stages, which I largely expect to shoot clean, or miss one only because of a bad trigger pull. Would I have snap shot a deer under the same conditions? Hell no.

 

[BigSteve57]

LOL, my farthest deer was only 178 yards.
No scope though. Heck, not even a case or shell.
Was old side hammer TC and roundball.
Offhand.
Quartering away.
Hit at left paunch and exited right side of windpipe.
Pinwheeled.

Shame she stopped w a dead tree in background that had a fork to aim at.
Figured that correspond to drop at 175 (which was parking lot to 100 yard bank at my club).
Evidently it was a pretty good guess.

178 yards open sights offhand is a great shot! Quartering away is a dream position. I've had only a few of those.
I've always hunted with a scoped rifle.
Open sights & slings is for competition for me but it's made me so much a better marksman with a scope.

 

[Hookeye]

I prefer a scope. Always have.
Need one now with aged eyes.

Last iron sight shot on deer was a small 8 at just over 50 yards w Colt Python facing away.
Good light, still had to look at sights 3 times before touching off.
Aimed at base of neck, hit maybe 2" higher than what I wanted.
Left to right was good. Bullet stopped in his nose.