Is Savage poised to take over Remington's

[RugerOldArmy]

...But I just have too much fun swapping barrels. My new-to-me $175 Shilen Supermatch 6.5x47 barrel doesn't copper at all. ...

I agree with the YodaVader's post that Savage barrels often copper-foul. It was my experience, and I've seen it at the range affecting others. Once my LRPV shot it, it did no longer copper-foul and shot even better than originally. It shot many 1/3 MOA groups at 300 when I didn't make mistakes, and it had a load that it liked.

But one thing I noticed right away with the PacNor...it seemed to shoot well, cold or warm, from the get-go. And what was even a better suprise was when working up groups...I couldn't find a 'bad' load for it. It seemed , with the exception of 58 Gr V-Max (which still shot below MOA), every combination of components and powder charge shot 1/2 MOA, and a lot shoot better. It was hard to find an 'ideal' load, as many resulted in the same groups. My expectations for performance with this barrel on this action were lower than the result, but some of this is surely attributable to Lapua brass and the fact that 6mmBR Norma is such an accurate and forgiving cartridge.

The fact that you can drop a primo barrel in so easy, is so very attractive.

 

[skinewmexico]

I got that Shilen for that price with 100 rounds of brass and dies. Couldn't stand to pass it up.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

You did well! My next Savage barrel will be a Shilen, even though I very happy with the PacNor.

'Twas a steal! I hate ya for beating me to that deal

 

[YodaVader]

When I got the LRPV and first shot it, I had exactly the same issue. It took about four boxes of reloads and a lot of soaking in Sweets and BBS to get the copper out. After about four boxes of reloads (say 200-ish rounds), it no longer copper fouled and shot well. I've seen others that had that same issue, and in most of the cases I know it went away.

Do you think the fouling is more common in the stainless barrels? Or it is something occurs in the blued barrels too?

My 12BVSS has been fired approx. 300 rounds , nearly all match bullet reloads. Right after the barrel is given a very complete cleaning is when the rifle shows what it can really do. Unfortunately it does not take long for groups to open up.

I'll bet with copper cleaner getting copper off the rough spots and continued shooting, your BVSS barrel will shoot smooth and it will no longer be an issue.

I hope you are correct. I will give it a very thorough cleaning session with Sweets before I take it to the range next time. But if I cannot get the fouling to stop that will give me the best excuse to install that match barrel!

When I first bought a Savage (the LRPV), I thought it was the ugliest rifle I've ever seen.

Actually I thought the LRPV looked pretty much like a custom job with barrel nut. My 12BVSS , I really like the look , much nicer looking than my 700s , but the 700s have black HS stocks. I like the style of the custom BR stock that RugerOldArmy has on his LRPV. I would not mind having that style stock for one of my 700s.

 

[Detritus]

It appears the Savage crowd believes ALL Savages will outshoot ANY and ALL Remington 700s

like others I'd like to clarify that i believe no such thing...

I know full well that i have been VERY lucky with both of my savages. both were 1/2 MOA or better with ammo they liked and an "attentive nut behind the trigger"(the 96-97 vintage 110FP was 1/4 MOA with it's favored load).

Some folks seem to think is over-hyping savage, i do not mean to. i simply state my experiences. at two scheduled Prone-only matches, and several times informally (somebody challenging for bragging right, lunch, money) i have taken a box- stock savage, a <$100 scope, and quality ammo. and fired a better score than shooters that were using rigs that cost more than my car. Note: i was NOT always the winner! i never said i've always won, in fact the highest i placed in either of the two formal/shceduled matches was i think 6th out of 30 shooters.. Just that i've used a $600 or less total cost rig and done better guys who put multiple thousands of dollars into their setup.
now amoung the informal stuff, before i left NC the first time, my original 110FP did send one guy scurrying off cussing and trying to figure out how "that cheap Ugly @#$ gun" beat his Brand New IBA built M40A3 clone.

my real point, money/cost of gear doesn't compensate for lack of skill or practice.
a savage target rifle is more than adequate for most shooters needs accuracy wise. it does have failings but so do ALL non-custom rifles.

guess i'll let go of it now, not gonna convert anyone.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Yoda:

I don't claim to be some sort of internet expert, but for what it's worth, this is my take on copper fouling and Savages. The factory Savage barrels, especially the stainless ones are not lapped nor very smooth. That doesn't mean they are bad barrels, for even Shilen and PacNor lap their barrels, (so they probably start out similarly), and I believe this (lapping) is a hand-labor proce$$. So most barrels after rifling have some rough spots, and you want sharp lands anyway.

When shooting a new barrel, copper will collect on the rough spots. Shooting will wear it smooth, but it won't smooth spots already covered in copper fouling. So, I use a lot of Sweets initially, (yes at the range when new), and BBS (Butches Bore Shine..which has _some_ copper solvent).

After you clean and remove the copper from the rough spots, and shoot again, more area is smoothed. Eventually it shoots pretty clean.

I'd guess your BVSS is near that point now, for my LRPV was frustrating in the beginning. After 200ish shots, sweets produced no blue on the patches, and life was good for me. You know, you mentioned that it shot well, then lost accuracy? Well, once my LRPV ceased to copper foul, even those first shots were tighter.


I've had this happen with other rifles, but it seemed Savages do more of it initially. Avoid the temptation to do something drastic (Like JB paste or the overzealous break-in strategies. You DO want sharp land-edges, just not rough land 'tops'.) But use a strong copper solvent until it gets better, and I'd bet it shoots in. I've yet to see a BVSS that didn't shoot well (1/2 MOA-ish), but it doesn't mean they're not out there.

Maybe Savage laps less to reduce cost. Dunno.

 

[CZ223]

Man am I glad

to be posting right behind Ruger Old Army. So far in this thread he is the one I agree with the most and my experience has mirrored his almost exactly. I now own seven Savage rifles and 2 extra barrels. All of my guns are BVSS or VLP models and all have stainless fluted barrels. Only 3 of my rifles have the Accu-trigger. At least 5 of the of the seven are sub-half MOA shooters. Two of them are too new to me to know yet but limited firing says they will be as well. Before I go any farther I have to say that I really like the look of my rifles. I don't care for the tupperware stocks on the low end guns, but I don't like the Remington tupperware either. As for real wood stocked guns I think that the model 14 Classic is at least as good looking, better in my opinion, than the Remington counterpart, and less expensive to boot. As for the problem of the barrels fouling, my experience is right on par with what ROA said. The more I shoot them the smoother they get. My 12 year old model 12BVSS in 223 still shoots 1/2'' or better 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I have TORTURED THIS RIFLE and it has thousands down the tube. I have recently rebarreled a a 308 to 22-250, this is afactory take-off not a custom barrel, and it is shooting half inch 5 shot groups with WWB and 2 handloads. My 2 204 VLPs shoot closer to the 1/4 MOA mark than they do 1/2 MOA. I like the ACCU-trigger very much and have no desire to replace them. Unlike many others I even live with the old style triggers and have mine tuned very light. This something I will probably change eventually but they haven't seemed to hurt accuracy much at all.

For what it is worth I was not born with a Savage in my hands. I have pretty much owned all of the major brands over the years. I have owned no less than 6 Ruger 77's at one time with heavy barrels and the tang mounted safeties. I loved those guns. I have owned 2 Winchester model 70's. I have also owned 4 or 5 Remingtons, three of them Heavy barreled Varmint rigs. The last one I owned was a 700 VSSF in 22-250 with the McMIllan stock and the Heavy fluted stainless barrel. At the time this was an $1,100.00 gun. It shot O.K. but not as well as either one of my 2 Savage BVSS's which by the way cost about $1100 for both at the time. I no longer own anything but Savages because they just shoot better, period. Are they perfect, no. The actions could be a lot smoother. Are they something to build in to a record setting bench rest rifle, no. Their 2 new F-class rifles are setting the standard for box-stock rifles though it seems. Are Savage rifles better than Remington rifles? On the whole I would have to answer yes. The main reason is that dollar for dollar you will more than likely get a better shooting rifle for your dollar if you spend it on the Savage. The next rifle I buy other than a Savage will probably be be a CZ in 204 or some other Varmint caliber just because I have heard so much good about them.

On a final note I have to tell a story. On a trip to the range about 5 years ago I ran into a friend of mine who was shooting with another guy when I got there. My friend Tom and his buddy Mike were shooting Mike's new custom rig. I don't remember the brand but I do remember having seen ads that guranteed 1/2MOA accuracy. I had never been impressed by the ads as my $550 Savage would shoot that well and usually better. Mike, it turned out, had about $3400 invested in the gun and the scope. Along with the used Leupold 6.5x20 that was on mine I had about $900 tied up in my rig. One thing lead to another and Mike ends up telling me that my gun can not possibly shoot as well his gun and he doesn't believe that it can shoot as well as I claim. I had already seen a couple of his targets that he was braggin on so I decidied to see just how sure he was of himself. I offered to bet my gun against his. We would each shoot 5 groups of 5 and the best target would win. Mike balked saying that it wasn't fair because his was worth so much more than mine. I allowed that that was true true so, if I happened to win the bet I would allow him to buy his gun back for $1100 (the cost of my gun with a new scope). He was ready to do it too when Tom stepped in and told him not too cause he had seen me shoot before. When things calmed down we went ahead with the contest just for fun and his best group was no better than my worst. At firsthe thought it might be that I was just a better shooter than him. I let him shoot my rifle to prove that it wasn't me. If that weren't good enough I walked into a local gun store about a month later to find his rig on consignment. I asked the dealer if the guy had ordered anything new. As it turned out, he had ordered a Savage just like mine.

 

[ndolson]

All I know is my Savage 10FP in .223 (completely stock) even with the "flimsy" stock is scary accurate. Its only hinderance is my shooting ability, and I can shoot under 1 moa with it from the bench. Add a Bell & Carlson stock bed the barrel, who knows what will happen.

The trigger is nothing short of fabulous. Love it.

 

[YodaVader]

You know, you mentioned that it shot well, then lost accuracy?

I've yet to see a BVSS that didn't shoot well (1/2 MOA-ish), but it doesn't mean they're not out there.

Yes indeed , my 12BVSS has, on many range sesssions, shot BELOW .5" @ 100 yards for 5 shots , but it just simply will not do it for a series of shots - like an aggregate - five consecutive 5 shot groups. Even the best ever series of four 5 shot groups started with a nice .342" but by the 4th opened up to .659". The first group was after a barrel cleaning and a fouler shot fired.

Some might say that is great but with match components - Lapua brass , benchrest primers and Sierra MatchKings , solid benchrest , SSS trigger and proven scope the consistency should be there. Now some may say the shooter - ME - is not up to the part! But I have fired consistent goups with my 700 on a regular basis.

I know full well that i have been VERY lucky with both of my savages. both were 1/2 MOA or better with ammo they liked and an "attentive nut behind the trigger"(the 96-97 vintage 110FP was 1/4 MOA with it's favored load).

Don't doubt you at all and it is impressive that mass produced rifles can achieve such high levels off accuracy. I know many here simply will think I am not truthful but my 700 LTR also performs to that level. Thing that gets me , when someone mentions they have a 700 that is exceptionally accurate and did not take hundreds to get it that way , everyone is skeptical.

my real point, money/cost of gear doesn't compensate for lack of skill or practice.

Very true!

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Yes indeed , my 12BVSS has, on many range sesssions, shot BELOW .5" @ 100 yards for 5 shots , but it just simply will not do it for a series of shots - like an aggregate - five consecutive 5 shot groups. Even the best ever series of four 5 shot groups started with a nice .342" but by the 4th opened up to .659". The first group was after a barrel cleaning and a fouler shot fired.

When you would clean after that fifth group, did you get blue patches if using copper solvent?

I think you just didn't shoot in your barrel yet. In two more trips to the range, you'll probably start to sound like some sort of Savage Kool-Aid drinker, and after you swap barrels most of the Remington bigots will ignore your posts or begin to hate you. I've seen it happen before...

 

[CZ223]

Yoda

It is not that we don't believe the occasional Remy is a capable of stellar peformance, I for one do. The problem is that we know it is only the occasional Remmy that will out shoot the Average Savage. The whole argument about the barrels fouling quickly is true but to me seems a minor inconvenience. There are several methods to cure this including fire lapping and hand lapping. I did use JB bore paste on my first 223 and that one is still shooting very well to this day. I do have to laugh at at the prospect of buying a new Savage only to replace the barrel with an aftermarket one. It seems pretty clear to me that the Savage barrels are quite accurate if not a little rough.

 

[Ash]

I had a Savage 110FP in .308 with stock adjustable trigger (pre accutrigger) and original synthetic stock. Best 5 shot group was 13/32's with PMP ammo. It regularly shot 3/4" all day long - with that crappy stock. Now, it was a heavy barrelled rifle. I sold it because it was too heavy for hunting and that kind of accuracy was not needed. But, my personal experience with that 110, an older 111 and a Stevens 110 (all pre-accutrigger) was that they were all very accurate rifles.

Ash

 

[YodaVader]

The whole argument about the barrels fouling quickly is true but to me seems a minor inconvenience. It seems pretty clear to me that the Savage barrels are quite accurate if not a little rough.

To me this is the equivalent of having to change the oil in your car everyday before taking off. Not a minor issue but a PITA to have to spend more time cleaning than shooting.

I do have to laugh at at the prospect of buying a new Savage only to replace the barrel with an aftermarket one.

Laugh if you want - If I had mentioned owning a 700 that was fouling like my 12BVSS and said I wanted to replace the barrel then I would be hearing , "with a Savage that would be such a simple job and cost you so much less".

I originally bought the 12BVSS to find out for myself just how good these Savages are suppose to be , not to go out and spend $300 on another barrel. The fact that it DOES NOT shoot any better than my 700LTR even when cleaned and that it fouls so quickly makes the match barrel installation seem worthwhile.

Truth be told if I had to do it over again , instead of buying my last two .223s - the 12BVSS and 700SPS , I would have just applied the money to a custom action / match barrel.

I think you just didn't shoot in your barrel yet. In two more trips to the range, you'll probably start to sound like some sort of Savage Kool-Aid drinker

I will take RugerOldArmy's advice and perform some thorough cleaning sessions along with Sweets to remove the copper . And give it another few range sessions.

 

[Hudge]

I've got a Savage 116, and a Remington 700 BDL DM. My 700 shoots a wee bit more accurate, but the Savage is nipping at it's heels. I have the non-accu trigger, and replaced it with a SSS trigger about 7 years ago. From the faftory I like the Remington action and trigger better, but my rifles are each 12 years old now. Looking at new rifles, I like the newer Savages over the Remingtons. I am hoping I make rank this year, and I can buy me a new Savage 14 7mm-08!

 

[Savage Shooter]

Won't argue that the stock is ugly but my 12fv .223 is plenty accurate enough for anything I care to shoot I shot a crow at 352 paces in 20-30mph winds Givin I had to hold alot for the wind they still shoot I say functionality over beauty any day although I do plan on later putting on a bell&carlson medelist stock. As for the trigger the best thing ive ever shot mine was set 1.5 lbs from the factory and broke like glass. I do have to clean often but thats because i shoot cheap wolf ammo. For the money way better than remington.
Love my savage If i had to buy it again I wouldn't buy a bull barrel but thats it.

 

[JNewell]

I have had both Remington 700s and Winchester 70s that shot .5MOA or less. (Never had that happen with my single Ruger 77 flatbolt, which I keep solely for sentimental reasons.) Never tried a Savage centerfire (have an 10ML II) but there is no question in my mind that:

1. Savage is capable of producing rifles as accurate as anything else commercially available as mass-produced rifles

2. Remington's QC has been slipping in the past several years

3. Savage represents a notable value, defined as value : performance, certainly better than the other major manufacturer's bolt rifles

There is luck in all of this...and skill...ours and the manufacturers'. You can make good choices without diminishing other good choices, though.

 

[z_biker]

Interesting, those that dislike Savages the most never owned, shot, researched, or held one.
Brand loyal to the core, no matter what. Sounds like the Harley vs. Honda debate.
z

 

[YodaVader]

Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Yep , was looking at this 2007 match results and there are still plenty of Remingtons to be found that are competitive.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wotoplists.php?year=2007&cls=Light+Gun&grsc=Group&topct=100&send=Submit

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Quote:
Will they ever take over the extreme accuracy market, no, that sector is ruled by trued remington 700's, 40x's 722's, xp-100's, and more recently, dominated by custom actions such as Stolle, BAT, Neiska Bay, Stiller, Viper, Hall, and others..

Yep , was looking at this 2007 match results and there are still plenty of Remingtons to be found that are competitive.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wotopli...00&send=Submit

Come now, what exactly do you believe about that list. Not a single rifle there has a Remington action and barrel. Every one lists a gunsmith. There is an entire sub-industry devoted to truing, sleeving, and rebarreling Remingtons.

I challenge each of these posters to go to a respected benchrest forum (benchrest.com, 6mmbr.com, etc.) and ask about the wisdom of building a competitive benchrest rifle on your factory benchrest action.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

*double tap*

 

[z_biker]

Double tap, again...........

1/2 MOA is not in the same league as 1/5 MOA.

z

 

[YodaVader]

Come now, what exactly do you believe about that list

I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

 

[MJ]

They shoot, bottom line.

my '42 shoots as well as my old 110.

 

[skinewmexico]

I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

Download the list from the F-Class Nationals.

 

[Detritus]

I believe that not a single rifle listed was a Savage.

Yeah and not a single rifle on there is a FACTORY remington either.

As noted above there is a whole, huge, sub-set of the gunsmithing industry dedicated to re-making remingtons into benchrest guns.
savage has for various reasons (including the military's choice of the rem700 as a base for the M40 and M24). not enjoyed the same popularity or even recognition of it's existance within the general public, as the remington 700.

So the savage does not have hundreds, if over a thousand, 'smiths out in the US offering to tune it up into a competitive benchrest gun. i can think of only two off the top of my head doing such builds on a regular basis. and most of those seem to be for guys shooting F-class.

and honestly I don't beleive savage will ever overtake remington as a Benchrest action, remmy has too big a head start. But as skinewmexico said take a look at the F-class Stats. Savage DOES have a significant presence there, and i beleive will maintain that presence.