Is SR7625, TrailBoss faster than Win 231 ???

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MuffinMaster

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I am beginning to question if this chart is correct:

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

I see that SR7625, Trailboss, and Tite Group are faster than Win 231 and HP38. I believe all these powders are a part of the Hodgon family of powders. They should know the speeds of thier powders relitive to each other ........ correct????

If I look at the same chart but from Lee this is reversed completely for all these powders. Lee lists win231 and hp-38 faster than any of the others. The differences are radical not minor.

I am a very confused newbie.

I am trying to work up a load in 45 acp LRN 230 gr softball and thought of changing powder to something faster from SR7625 and order some new powder. I have some leading issues. I should change to trailboss or tite group rather than win231 or hp-38 if speed is my goal ???
 
Burn rate charts are like a box of chocolates.
You never know what you are going to get.

About every one ever published has minor discrepancy's in the order of the powders.

And burn rate can be different depending on the caliber it is used in due to differences in case capacity, etc.

A better reference is a load manual.
Powders with higher max charges, are slower burning then powders with smaller max charges. In that caliber.

If speed is your goal?
(Assuming you mean velocity?)

Then W-231 / HP-38 is the one to use.

BTW: Trail Boss is a special case.
It is fast, but it is extra fluffy, so a can of it doesn't go as far as other powders.
Not to mention it comes in a smaller 8 oz can.

rc
 
If I am trying to TEST if the powder burn rate for SR7625 might be too slow for the hardness of my bullet I am loading then I should use trailboss and not win231 as an experiment?
 
Burn rate doesn't have that much effect on leading. Bullet diameter vs. bore diameter, and bullet speed are the major factors. An 18 bhn bullet needs to fill the bore and rifling and be fast enough to accelerate without leading. A softer bullet is usually easier to use because it will swell easier to fill the bore.

I've had good results with 7625 behind 18 bhn lead in 357 mag at speeds over 1,000 fps. it alsand 45 Colto does well at lower speeds with 12 bhn lead.

45 acp is not my forte. But 18 bhn bullets need to be pushed fast.
 
When you say "pushed faster" you mean velocity and not burn rate.

If we assume that leading is being cause by velocity for this discussion and our bullet is sized correctly. It would be true to say that Trailboss,being the slowest velocity at max load in my lee load manual would be the worst powder to choose. Ramshot Shilhoute being the best.
 
Try Alliant Bullseye powder.

Everybody's favorite winning .45 NRA Bullseye match load powder for about 75 years.

You can't go too far wrong with it.

rc
 
thx, but I can get copper jackets in a few weeks and bullseye takes about 3 months to a year to get nowadays ..... if I am lucky. The real answer for me, today, if I wish to stop leading with 45 acp is to use copper or wait up to a year or buy a lot of chorboy's ..... hahaha

I have learned from this thread other than sizing your bullet correctly everything else is guess and by god science. In that everyone can guess and all are demi-gods. BTW if I really have read all those other threads correctly ..... sizing your bullet correctly can mean a lot of different things too.

Well there is a lot of frustration coming out. I have been fighting leading for too long with this round. I have made some headway but not too much. I believe my bullet is size correctly ...
 
You say you believe your sizing is correct.....have you slugged your barrel yet to confirm this? Also are you sure you aren't swaging bullets when seating (not sure if this happens alot with 45 but I know it took me a bit of jimmying to not swage my bayou bullets for my 9mm).
 
I have slugged the bore and am not swaging. .452 puts me .001 over. MB comes in at .452 to .4525.

I was trying to eliminate powder as a factor. I was wondering if I was ... bumping up ..... and if not which powder I have on hand might help me bump up more. That is what started this thread. What is the speed of sr7625 in relation to other recommended powders such as win231. SR7625 is the powder I have been using. I have titegroup and TrailBoss as well. Most threads suggest win231 speed works well for a MB 230 gr. to bump up with. Therefore if win231 really does work to bump with them logic dictates so will sr7625 since hogdon published this data for THIER powders. Lee has a very different take on this. In addition the read of a lot of different posting indicated to me that the shootgun/pistol powders are considered generaly slower that pistol powders. I believe SR7625 and win231 would be opposite sides of that equation.

So far I have been told that it is NOT burn speed of a powder but the velocity it delivers. That begs the following observation. I am using SR7625 at max load which is faster that win231 and at a higher pressure. I get leading. In addition I have used TrailBoss which delivers a slower velocity and a little less pressure than win231. I do get less leading, but I still have a leading problem.

My goal is to reduce the possiblities of what is causing the issues. I am trying to remove the powder element. If I use a powder that is faster than win231/hp-38/Zip and leading is not removed I have another issue to go look for. Lee lists trailboss and titegroup as slower than win231 where as hogdon lists is as faster. Lyman follows hogdon in these powders as well. I understand there will be measuring difference between publishers. What I am seeing is extreme however. It looks like each manufacture creates burn rate charts for thier powders. I find it had to believe they are all meaningless and of no value.

My understanding of the relationship of a powder to leading is such that the powder can generate enought pressure to over come the bullet alloy and move it (expand) so the end of the bullet will fill the bore as it enters it. Thus the term "Bumping Up". Slow burning powders might not reach those pressures untill after it enters the bore. If the bore is not sealed then gas cutting takes place, melting lead off the bullet onto the gun. Well that is my understanding so far right or wrong.
 
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There are a lot of powders with similar or even the same burn rates and they line up on different charts sometimes in a little different order. Since the actual rate of burn isn't quantified you just have to accept the order realizing that equal burn rate powders are placed close together on the chart but not necessarily indicating a real difference in their rate. The powders do have different characteristics in volume and composition (ball vrs flake). One expects there to be greater difference the greater the ranking though.
 
Lee list roughly equal powder together in speed. It groups the fast pistol powders together and the slower shootgun/pistol powder together with trailboss and titegroup centered to both. Hogdon shows pistol and shootgun/pistol powders together with zip-sr7625-win231-hp38-uniquic-universal. Titegroup and trailboss faster than all of them.

Well the question now is:

Is trailboss faster or slower than win231 or is titegroup faster or slower than win231?
 
Powder burn rates are not exact, they are relative rates and the burn rates will change when used in different cartridges.

I use a lot of W231/HP-38 and IMO both Trail Boss and Titegroup are faster than W231.

Note, Lee does not do it's own testing and borrows their data from other sources. It looks like they got their burn rate information from Western Powders. That charge is also questionable to me and I'm more comfortable with the Hodgdon chart.
 
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Since you have Titegroup and TrailBoss, try them. Hodgdon shows loads for the 230 LRN for both powders.

One problem you are up against is the bullet size. For lead recommended size is .001 over, so for lead you should be using .453-.454 diameter. With the hard bullet that is probably the cause of the leading. But it doesn't hurt to try what you have on hand.
 
It's really hard to lead up a .45 ACP IMO. Detail your load procedure, what dies, what bullet, powder charge, etc, etc, and maybe we can figure it out.
 
Keep in mind Hodgdon actually tests their powders and loads, while Lee doesn't test anything. They just copy other sources data. And you have no way of knowing where that data came from. I'd trust Hodgdon's data way before I'd trust Lee's where they conflict.
 
Walkalong said:
It's really hard to lead up a .45 ACP IMO. Detail your load procedure, what dies, what bullet, powder charge, etc, etc, and maybe we can figure it out.
Click to expand...
This is true. Tell us more so we can try to help.

Also like said above, powder burn rate had very little if anything to do with leading. Bullet fit and pressure are the culprits.
 
Thx for the offer.

I am going to change a few things.

I have installed a new barrel that was fitted for this gun 20 or 30 yrs ago by a gunsmith. It has never been used other than to shoot a few test rounds. I am not too sure the original barrel is in perfect condition after using a 20x loop. It will not chamber .4535+ properly nor do I have a sizing die for .453. I have slugged the old barrel and it is around .451 as best as I can tell. I have not slugged the new barrel yet. I have a selection of 230 gr bullets that range from .454 to .452 if I pick through and find them.

I am currently using a lee turret press and lee dies. All 4 stations are being used since it is seating and crimping with 2 different dies. Particular care is given to not swedge or shave the lead during seating and crimping. I check every so often with a 20x loop and a fine neddle. I scrape around the case head to try and remove shavings. At best I loosen some lead dust. In the past I loosened wedding bands of lead. I use 230 gr MB bullets with about 18 BHN sized to .452 which comes out to between .452 and .4525. I double tumble lube with 45-45-10 roughly measured. It helps control smoke and I think it helps a little with leading. Well it appears to at least. I use 5.9 gr sr7625. My setup can hold to about 10th a grain for SR7625. I seat to OAL of about 1.23. My setup can only hold to about 2-4 thousands. The lee turret head moves up and down as well as spins. It is hard to hold OAL with this equiptment. I can keep to within a few thousands though. I crimp to .471 to .4725 on average since I use range brass. I plunk each round. I make test batches of 10 - 15 rounds and them run out to the range.
Test summeries:
.451 w/no tumble lube-- extreme leading for the first 3/4" of barrel
.452 w/no tumble lube--not as extreme and no as pronounced in first 3/4" and a little spread out through barrel
.452 w/double tumble--helped a little but not much with leading
.452 w/double tumble and 4.3 gr of trailboss-- best so far with leading spread out through barrel

I load up 30 rounds of the last trailboss round. Accuracy start to tamper off around the 16th round. Started to get 6" avg. patterns around 25th round at 26 ft. Leading was not extreme but very noticable. 10 to 15 swipes of a bronze wool laced brush resolve the issue.

My next test I guess will be at .453 and titegroup at around 4.3 to 4.4 gr. I do not load titegroup much. I have had a lot of trouble loading .453. I find it easy to twist the bullet during seating and it did not load so well either. I'll give it a go again. I have learned so much so far I may be a little better at it by now hopefully.

I understand it is pressure that moves/expands the bullet. Is it true however that enough pressure must come to bare BEFORE the bullet completely enters the bore? If it is then is it not the burn rate a rough way to deduce the powder to use to accieve the pressures you need to expand the bullet. Burn rate meaning the time it takes a given amount of powder to achieve its maximun amount of pressure once ignited.
 
Are you using the Lee Factory crimp die? If so that may be swaging the bullets down a bit. Crimp one then pull it and measure to see if the diameter changed. I use the FCD and only bump the mouth in the die, if you force the round all the way in it can/will squeeze it down and can cause leading.
 
I am not using the FCD. I agree with your statement. I have found another use for FCD. When I twist a bullet during seating and it will not plunk I will run it through the FCD. In doing this it helps loosen the bullet hold in the shell and makes it easyer for me to dismantle the round.

I had a chance to take the old barrel over to the gunsmith. He rechecked the slug. He saw it as .451 too. He noticed something. Some very lite pitting in the barrel here and there. He said it should not effect accuracy too much for the most part, however he was not too sure its effects on leading.

I have read that pitting and corrosion can effect leading. Ths might be the my cause. I have a few rounds made ups and I'll see after the holidays.
 
I had a chance to test a few rounds:

.452 sized-230gr MBC- 4.5 gr Titegroup-1.23 OAL- very little leading and had good accuracy. Leading is really not a problem here but I only shoot 10 rounds.

I have loaded up a simular load but with TrailBoss. I suspect that I will get a little bit more leading, if I am wrong I'll post my results.

IMO softball seems to like fast powders when sized correctly in a good barrel.
 
I do believe Hodgdon updates their burn rate chart. As mentioned LEE does not test anything and compiles data from other sources. When was the last update to the LEE manual if there ever was one;)

Even though I like LEE I would bet on Hodgdon.
 
You should really slug your barrel. With a removable semi-auto barrel, it's a piece of cake.
Watch part 1 and part 2 of this video. Skip to 1:30 of part one to see the real stuff. He has very good tips and you probably already have everything you need to easily make a slug.

Once you use a properly sized and lubed bullet, you shouldn't be leading the barrel at any speed.
 
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