Is the 158 grain semi wad cutter considered expanding?

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JohnhenrySTL

JohnhenrySTL

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I have reloaded thousands of .38 specials with the lead semi wadcutter. I have heard many contradicting facts. I am wondering if they are to be considered expanding in the same way that here in Missouri we have laws requiring expanding ammo for Whitetail, or if they are considered expanding the way that "self defense" ammo is?
 
JohnhenrySTL said:
I have reloaded thousands of .38 specials with the lead semi wadcutter. I have heard many contradicting facts. I am wondering if they are to be considered expanding in the same way that here in Missouri we have laws requiring expanding ammo for Whitetail, or if they are considered expanding the way that "self defense" ammo is?
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My personal opinion is any lead bullet without a jacket should be considered an expanding bullet. Any jacketed bullet that has lead exposed is an expanding bullet.Hollow points are considered expanding. Any full metal jacket would be NON expanding. That is what my state considers non expanding. YMMV.
 
A while back I shot a couple range scrap cast 38's through a piece of 2x4, through a 5 gallon bucket of water and 6-8" into the dirt... there was no deformation on the recovered bullets asides from the rifling. YMMV
 
The 158 grain cast SWC bullet is not an expanding bullet for all intents and purposes. Game laws may differ, since it's an all lead bullet, but the one I saw recovered in at autopsy didn't expand at all...........

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
No, they are not expanding, and cannot be considered as such.

However, they will shoot a full caliber diameter hole through anything that walks on two or four legs in Missouri. And it will be found dead at the end of a double-wide blood trail within 25-75 yards.

Whether or not they are considered 'expanding' under state law where you live would best be addressed by a phone call to your local F&G LEO.

rc
 
I wouldn't use them for hunting, because I have read to keep lead only bullets below a thousand fpps. I just was wondering if there purpose was target shooting or something I might of heard a long time ago about them being used as a "police load." Not to be annoying R.C. but Missouri is close to having an Elk season.

Thanks everybody for your replies.
 
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No truth to what you heard then.

The .357 & .44 Magnum revolver cartridges were developed and contined to be used for years with soft LSWC bullets driven at 1,300 to 1,500 FPS from revolvers.

Together, they have killed every game animal on the earth at one time or another.

rc
 
JohnhenrySTL said:
I wouldn't use them for hunting, because I have read to keep lead only bullets below a thousand fpps. I just was wondering if there purpose was target shooting or something I might of heard a long time ago about them being used as a "police load." Not to be annoying R.C. but Missouri is close to having an Elk season.

Thanks everybody for your replies.
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Under 1000 fps? Target shooting? What even did our ancestors do before jacketed bullets were invented? Who in the world did they get by with only lead bullets?

I shoot plane base cast bullets in the 30-30 and 45-70 well in excess of 1000 fps and get no leading and they are very accurate. You would be surprised at how well a LSWC bullet will take game. The sharp shoulder not only makes nice holes in paper but does a good job cutting flesh too.
 
That too.

Just so you know, modern jacketed hollow-Point handgun ammo as we know it today wasn't invented or in wide spread use until the mid 1960's.

Before that it was lead bullets, or FMJ-RN bullets in auto pistols & all military ammo.

It was a known fact that the LSWC was a much better game killer then the LRN revolver ammo common at the time.

rc
 
The old FBI load used a Hollowpoint lead SWC bullet, swaged of soft alloy. That is an expanding bullet, but only because of the hollowpoint in the nose. If the hollowpoint became clogged with cloth, or closed up on contact, the bullet wouldn't expand.

The flat nose and small shoulder of the plain SWC bullet cause hydrostatic shock in tissue and liquid. This is what causes an incapacitating wound, not any kind of expansion.

On the other hand, if the soft alloy bullet hits solid bone, there will be deformation, but the form of the deformation depends on the angle it hits the bone, and how solid the bone is, plus terminal velocity. It still can't be called an expanding bullet, just a deformed one.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I had the same problem in Alabama--Alabama law says "Soft Nose or Expanding"-- so hard Cast SWC is generally deemed not to fit the criteria-- I have a friend Howard Fleury who cast for me-- makes a 265 grain Lyman 44 Devastator cast hollowpoint and a 240 Grain 45 Auto HP both hard cast-- He has some .357 bullet that are GC and not-- one is a Hollow Point which he could cast very hard for you-- contact him--
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=2080657

Here is one, you could ask him to cast it really hard--so it wouldn't expand so well, or lead so easily-- but anyone looking at it would say, "yeah its an expanding bullet".
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=433964506

Screen name on Gunbroker is PastorHOF
 
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I would consider all cast lead bullets to be expanding. Consider this, it if the bullet hits bone, tissue, it will upset.

If I were in charge of Game and Hunting Departments I would consider the ban on "no expanding" as a way to prevent hunters from using AP, FMJ, or tracers!. These bullet don’t expand, and if they hit trees, rocks, they will retain enough structural integrity to ricochet. I have shot through trees with 8 X 57 mm military ammunition, probably AP, and a bud of mine had the experience of 7.62 X 39 mm ball (or AP) actually slapping through a wooded area, and hitting someone he knew, about 1 mile away on the right. The bullet was spent, and the people down range knew who was firing. Even a hard cast bullet is likely not to act this way.
 
Wad cutter and semi wad cutter bullets are designed to cut a clean, neat, round hole in a paper target to facilitate ease in scoring. They WILL do the same thing in flesh...unless they are deflected. Then they will either be deflected and/or deformed. If they hit something solid, like concrete, they will "mushroom"...as will a lead round.
 
If you're concerned about the legality of the LSWC for hunting, I would contact your local DNR/F&G. If you are concerned about the lethality of the LSWC for SD/HD outta a .357, you have nuttin' to worry about.
 
Whether a cast 158 expands or not is moot. The .38 Special isn't enough for deer. However, a cast bullet will pretty much disintegrate if it hits a bone.
 
There used to be a tool for making hollow points out of swc bullets.
A .45 auto SWC can flatten out to the size of a quarter coin when they hit steel plates.
 
With .357 semi wad cutter you will have a perfectly cut .357 hole going in and a .357 hole going out. The bullet would have to be really soft lead to expand. Then you will have problems with the barrel leading in. kwg
 
kwg020 said:
With .357 semi wad cutter you will have a perfectly cut .357 hole going in and a .357 hole going out. The bullet would have to be really soft lead to expand. Then you will have problems with the barrel leading in. kwg
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I can't agree. Leading mostly happens when the bullet doesn't have the correct diameter.

Even though many reloaders think soft bullets cause leading much of the time the bullets causing the leading are too hard. There are a lot of things that cause leading and the one most people point to is usually the one least causing the leading. (soft bullets)
 
ArchAngelCD said:
I can't agree. Leading mostly happens when the bullet doesn't have the correct diameter.

Even though many reloaders think soft bullets cause leading much of the time the bullets causing the leading are too hard. There are a lot of things that cause leading and the one most people point to is usually the one least causing the leading. (soft bullets)
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Agree 100%. I've shot BHN18 bullets at 700fps and BHN10-12 bullets at 1400. No leading because of proper fit.
 
that bullet made of dead soft lead or cowboy action lead, with a gas check pushed to say 1500 fps will be interesting.
 
I've had some bad leading problem shooting 175 grain swcs in my .40 p229. That was where my re search led me to believe lead bullets should be kept below a thousand fpps. I never intended to hunt deer with a .38 special. As I recieved, I wanted the stories and truths surrounding the 158 grain swc.
 
I've had some bad leading problem shooting 175 grain swcs in my .40 p229. That was where my re search led me to believe lead bullets should be kept below a thousand fpps. I never intended to hunt deer with a .38 special. As I recieved, I wanted the stories and meaty details surrounding the 158 grain swc. Two of my revolvers seem dialed in with the 158 grain. I've also never had a problem finding them even during dry times. I have great luck with Berry's and Sutor's choice.
 
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