Is the 158 grain semi wad cutter considered expanding?
- Thread starter JohnhenrySTL
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I poured these up a while back and the alloy runs in the 10-12 BHN range. They were loaded over 13grs of AA-9 and shot from my 6" GP-100. The recovery bucket was setting at 25yds. There were two different SWC molds used one was a 158gr, the other was a 170gr. Final weight of the bullets was 163gr for the light one and 172grs on the heavier one.
I didn't get the velocity as I was just out to see how they shot, and if they would lead the barrel, being this was a blend of alloy I was just trying out. There was no leading what so ever, and just going by the loading manual listed velocity for a similar load it should be going right at or just over 1300fps. The test barrel they listed as used was 4". The lighter ones managed to get down to around 9" of penetration where the heavier ones made it in to about 14".
They did a number on the lid of my bucket as you can see by the punched out pieces. Me personally, I would have no issues using them for a deer or a hog here in the woods I usually tromp through.
Then there are these HP's which are similar to the one in the link posted above. They started out as 160grs and were loaded over the same 13gr load as the ones above. This alloy runs around a 10 maybe 11 BHN, but not much more. Again no leading what so ever has been noted while shooting these, even at the higher velocities.
That said though, with commercial cast bullets, especially like the HP one linked above, it "should" expand, if you were looking for something that you COULD hunt with. The key thing is the alloy composition. You would want something in a 16-1 Lead/Tin mix, or similar which run no more than a 14BHN softer would be better, and try for a velocity of around 1100 - 1200'ish feet per second, or what ever you could get with little to no leading. The harder alloy will result in the noses simply blowing off upon expansion. This may or may not be a good thing as it leaves less weight on the remaining core to penetrate.
Keep in mind that seeing a little leading at higher velocities isn't a big deal as long as your not seeing accuracy or pressure issues. A lot of times it will materialize in a specific area of the barrel and once there won't get much worse. Maybe a streak down just one of the grooves but nothing more. However if your seeing a big build up just in front of the forcing cone, or down towards the muzzle your looking at either a fit or lube issue or possibly both.
Hope this helps with some of your questions. I realize you mentioned your NOT looking at hunting with them. However some of your misconceptions hopefully have been dismissed.
I didn't get the velocity as I was just out to see how they shot, and if they would lead the barrel, being this was a blend of alloy I was just trying out. There was no leading what so ever, and just going by the loading manual listed velocity for a similar load it should be going right at or just over 1300fps. The test barrel they listed as used was 4". The lighter ones managed to get down to around 9" of penetration where the heavier ones made it in to about 14".
They did a number on the lid of my bucket as you can see by the punched out pieces. Me personally, I would have no issues using them for a deer or a hog here in the woods I usually tromp through.
Then there are these HP's which are similar to the one in the link posted above. They started out as 160grs and were loaded over the same 13gr load as the ones above. This alloy runs around a 10 maybe 11 BHN, but not much more. Again no leading what so ever has been noted while shooting these, even at the higher velocities.
That said though, with commercial cast bullets, especially like the HP one linked above, it "should" expand, if you were looking for something that you COULD hunt with. The key thing is the alloy composition. You would want something in a 16-1 Lead/Tin mix, or similar which run no more than a 14BHN softer would be better, and try for a velocity of around 1100 - 1200'ish feet per second, or what ever you could get with little to no leading. The harder alloy will result in the noses simply blowing off upon expansion. This may or may not be a good thing as it leaves less weight on the remaining core to penetrate.
Keep in mind that seeing a little leading at higher velocities isn't a big deal as long as your not seeing accuracy or pressure issues. A lot of times it will materialize in a specific area of the barrel and once there won't get much worse. Maybe a streak down just one of the grooves but nothing more. However if your seeing a big build up just in front of the forcing cone, or down towards the muzzle your looking at either a fit or lube issue or possibly both.
Hope this helps with some of your questions. I realize you mentioned your NOT looking at hunting with them. However some of your misconceptions hopefully have been dismissed.
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ReloaderFred
Member
Those appear to have been shot into fine sand, which will enhance deformation over shooting them into something similar to tissue.
I cast the majority of my bullets with an alloy that produces a BHN of 12. There is no leading and the bullets perform like I want them to.
Hope this helps.
Fred
I cast the majority of my bullets with an alloy that produces a BHN of 12. There is no leading and the bullets perform like I want them to.
Hope this helps.
Fred
For the OP's purposes - staying legal in a state that requires "expanding" ammunition for deer season - I think this is still a possibly touchy issue. The game commission in my state is known for being arbitrary and not making much sense. Were I in his situation, I'd probably just pick up a couple boxes of SP hunting ammunition and avoid the potential hassle.
GooseGestapo
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IT DEPENDS....
A hard-cast SWC at ~800fps from a .38spl for practical purposes dosen't expand unless it hits something hard like a breast bone or such.
Shoot the same bullet from a .357mag at ~1,300fps, and it will expand quite nicely. I've got a Lee 158gr .358" GC that I shot a pig with in 2004. It was just under the hide on the far-side and was nicely "riveted" into a classic mushroom shape and lost about 5gr weight besides the gas-check.
SWAGED LEAD SWC; and especially the LSWC that were used in the Federal and Winchester .38spl service ammo expands nicely and the HOLLOW POINT SWC from such factory ammo expands substantially.
I've seen jacketed hollow point from .38spl both from autopsies and range scrap that had NO SIGNIFICANT expansion.
Just because it's a Hollow Point doesn't mean it ALWAYS expands.
I was a Conservation Enforcement Officer for 25yrs. I would in no-way issue a citation for "non-expanding" ammo for a "lead semi-wadcutter", or any "all-lead" bullet, ie: Round-nose, SWC, ect.
However, for many years; only the .357mag with a factory advertised energy of 500ft/lbs or greater was legal, and NO .357mag was legal in a rifle... Go figure!
I and others for many years suggested changing the law and it finally was ~ 1995 to "any center-fire" cartridge .22cal or larger, with "expanding" type ammo. It further specifies that "full-metal jacket" ammo is prohibited.
I even got "grief" from some Viet-Nam vets regarding FMJ from a 5.56x45 being "expanding" ammo, but I would always point out the "prohibition" of FMJ regardless....
Only a Full-Jacketed or Monolithic "lead free" bullet would truly be considered a "non-expanding" bullet.
My .357 and .429 and .452" handgun bullets expand, only if a small amount at under 1,000fps, but their ability to kill deer is unquestioned.
You ought to see how a deer shot with a 200gr .452" SWC in a .50/45cal sabot "bleeds" a deer. 1/2" streams of blood out both sides on a double-lung shot.... for about 25yds, then the deer stops bleeding and falls dead...
I done it several dozen times... never fails.
Can't speak as to expansion as they always completely penetrate...
A .24-.30cal bullet need's to...
Be sure to check with the Officers in your area.
Most are NOT firearms/ammunition knowledgeable.
Many I worked with barely could qualify with their issue firearms.
One female officer we dismissed after 12mos because she couldn't tell the difference between a buck and a doe, with or without antlers.... No joke !!!
A hard-cast SWC at ~800fps from a .38spl for practical purposes dosen't expand unless it hits something hard like a breast bone or such.
Shoot the same bullet from a .357mag at ~1,300fps, and it will expand quite nicely. I've got a Lee 158gr .358" GC that I shot a pig with in 2004. It was just under the hide on the far-side and was nicely "riveted" into a classic mushroom shape and lost about 5gr weight besides the gas-check.
SWAGED LEAD SWC; and especially the LSWC that were used in the Federal and Winchester .38spl service ammo expands nicely and the HOLLOW POINT SWC from such factory ammo expands substantially.
I've seen jacketed hollow point from .38spl both from autopsies and range scrap that had NO SIGNIFICANT expansion.
Just because it's a Hollow Point doesn't mean it ALWAYS expands.
I was a Conservation Enforcement Officer for 25yrs. I would in no-way issue a citation for "non-expanding" ammo for a "lead semi-wadcutter", or any "all-lead" bullet, ie: Round-nose, SWC, ect.
However, for many years; only the .357mag with a factory advertised energy of 500ft/lbs or greater was legal, and NO .357mag was legal in a rifle... Go figure!
I and others for many years suggested changing the law and it finally was ~ 1995 to "any center-fire" cartridge .22cal or larger, with "expanding" type ammo. It further specifies that "full-metal jacket" ammo is prohibited.
I even got "grief" from some Viet-Nam vets regarding FMJ from a 5.56x45 being "expanding" ammo, but I would always point out the "prohibition" of FMJ regardless....
Only a Full-Jacketed or Monolithic "lead free" bullet would truly be considered a "non-expanding" bullet.
My .357 and .429 and .452" handgun bullets expand, only if a small amount at under 1,000fps, but their ability to kill deer is unquestioned.
You ought to see how a deer shot with a 200gr .452" SWC in a .50/45cal sabot "bleeds" a deer. 1/2" streams of blood out both sides on a double-lung shot.... for about 25yds, then the deer stops bleeding and falls dead...
I done it several dozen times... never fails.
Can't speak as to expansion as they always completely penetrate...
A .24-.30cal bullet need's to...
Be sure to check with the Officers in your area.
Most are NOT firearms/ammunition knowledgeable.
Many I worked with barely could qualify with their issue firearms.
One female officer we dismissed after 12mos because she couldn't tell the difference between a buck and a doe, with or without antlers.... No joke !!!
melbr00ks
Member
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- Feb 29, 2012
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- 16
Copied from MO's regs...
Firearm Methods
Methods allowed during all portions of the firearms deer season, except the alternative methods portion:
Centerfire pistols, revolvers or rifles using expanding-type bullets. Legal ammunition includes lead bullets, copper bullets and bullets made of other material designed to expand
http://mdc.mo.gov/regulations/deer-regulations
Firearm Methods
Methods allowed during all portions of the firearms deer season, except the alternative methods portion:
Centerfire pistols, revolvers or rifles using expanding-type bullets. Legal ammunition includes lead bullets, copper bullets and bullets made of other material designed to expand
http://mdc.mo.gov/regulations/deer-regulations
OP
OP
JohnhenrySTL
Member
After recovering some of my reloads in dirt, I believe my bullets aren't expanding. I would however feel confident hunting deer with my semi wad cutters if they had enough speed and went where they were supposed to.
This year, I will use my found factory loaded 158 grain soft poinTed .357s.
Thanks again everybody. I have enjoyed learning what these do. And I will tinker with swc hollow points.
This year, I will use my found factory loaded 158 grain soft poinTed .357s.
Thanks again everybody. I have enjoyed learning what these do. And I will tinker with swc hollow points.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
You also have to ask yourself if your state allows lead round balls / buckshot / slugs during shotgun season?
Or cast lead bullets & balls during muzzle-loading season?
Same thing IMO.
But like I said in post #5.
Call your F&G department and ask them!!!!
rc
Or cast lead bullets & balls during muzzle-loading season?
Same thing IMO.
But like I said in post #5.
Call your F&G department and ask them!!!!
rc
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