Is the .380 enough?

[MrAcheson]

Would I like more than .380? Sure thing. Is it enough? If I do my part yes. If I don't do my part it doesn't matter what I carry. We're talking handguns here folks, not artillery pieces. If I miss its wasted anyway. If I hit I still have to hit something important and the size hole I make isn't going to change much between 380 and 9mm.

38sp is interesting to bring up. People complain about how expensive 380 is compared to 9mm. 380 and 38sp are about the same price, but I've never heard a word from people complaining about how expensive 38sp is. In fact I've known people to use 38sp to cut costs down from more expensive rounds.

 

[airrascal]

Not to beat the horse to death but....

We Americans seem to like either or decisions when in reality there are often too many variables to render a decent decision when it'll be based on just one variable. Caliber alone won't do it. You'll also have to consider ammo, launching platform, environment, state of mind, chemical influences, accessibilty, availability, proficiency and a host of others. All that being said:

1. AVOID situations where lethal force may be needed.

2. HAVE SA so that you can identify potentially bad situations so as to avoid them. (Don't let your guard down, ever!)

3. BE PROFICIENT with whatever it is that you will have with you when the SHTF. (Accurate hits count the most!)

When you get down to it, a ball point pen can be lethal. (Wound placement!)

 

[45Cal]

I like to inject a bit of humor into all of my post.
That said,
I carry a Colt Mustang 380 for a bug that's made out of steel so that I can always use it to pistol whip the perp if my rounds fail to stop the attack.
Really now, don't worry too much about it because 7 rounds of .380 can and will get the job done if you do your part and hit the target in the vital CNS region.

45CAL

 

[Shane333]

No hold it just a minute there, Glocksman.

You can't go changing the variables like demanding that the .380 perform like a 9mm lugar or .357 mag.

The comparison was between a .38 spl j-frame and the .380 out of a CZ83. After looking around, it appears that the average .38 spl defence ammo gives about 220 - 260 ft/lbs of energy (on average) between 0 and 50 yards distance.

.380 ammo seems to give about 160 - 200 ft/lbs of energy for the same distances.

For comparison I used Federal, Remington, and Winchester self defence ammo ballistics. Of course, corresponding barrel length isn't always reported for these ballistics, so there could be a little "apples and oranges" type comparing here.

The results do give the .38 a leg up on the .380. There are some exceptions, however, but they require expensive exotic rounds. With Magsafe ammo I could expect energy averaging over 300 ft/lbs from a .380. That type of ammunition costs about $1 a shot, however, and is designed to perform differently than the common self defence ammo produced by most manufacturers.

Looks like the .38 does pretty well. Of course, with my CZ83 I still can have almost three times as many opportunities to incapacitate my target before reloading.

So there you go. An honest comparison.

 

[Erich]

Just so you know, Shane, I think your .38 spl energy numbers are way high for a snub - those look like 4" numbers. The .380's energy numbers are a LOT closer to a .38 +P's out of a snub.

But I personally don't think energy is the point. The .38 spl launches a heavier bullet that is more likely to penetrate effectively than the 95-gr pill from a .380.

Firepower is a good point, however, as is ability to reload quickly. I've yet to see someone do that with a J-frame.

 

[Shane333]

Thank you Erich.

Also, in fairness, a dud in a revolver is easier to deal with than the dud in the semi-auto. With the revolver, you just have to pull the trigger again.

I've got to stop discussing this. I find myself coveting a revolver now.

 

[MICHAEL T]

:banghead: You flip flop more than Kerry.Today best start looking for something else.......at least a 9mm.Day before yesterday you were getting rid of PPK. Yesterday you decided you were keeping the PPK and fire a least a 1000 rounds. To day a 380 is not enough, even when most people here say it will do the job if you do yours. There is no magic caliber . Even with 45's 44 mags, 357 mags none work 100%. You can ask questions forever but nothing will ever get solved. Stand up say this is what I going to do and do it.

 

[erikd65]

OUCH! on the Kerry comment... that hurt my feelings

Anyway, I am already looking for something else... leaning toward a Kahr.

Honestly, I have been out of the gun hobby for a long time. Forgive me if I am rusty or out of touch and indecisive, because I am. I am looking for some sort of balance I suppose.

Anyway, this will be the last time I ask about anything .380 or PPK related.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Now I belive your starting to use your head. A Kahr is a fine CCW pistol and in 9 would most likely suit you. In fact today I was looking at a 40 cal. for me not you. I really liked how it feels in my hand and about size of my PPK. Take a long hard look Please.............................!

 

[erikd65]

No begging please

 

[magsnubby]

I used to carry a .380 until i found out it was only effictive on chipmunks.

Then i went to a .38 +p's. But they said the .38 was a lousy stopper.

So i bought a 9mm. But they all said "Are you crazy? A 9mm is for girly men."

Ah! A .357 magnum should do the trick. "Nope. To much noise and recoil. Git yerself a .40"

Well he was an expert so i figured it was the hot set up. "Nope a .40 is just a wanna be caliber. You need a real gun. Git yerself a .45"

So i figured the .45 acp had served well all these years so i couldn't go wrong. Now i find out the .45 is just a big ole slow moving bullet that has to much recoil.

Now i have a safe full of usless guns.

Now i'm looking for a 2" S&W 500 magnum with J frame boot grips.

 

[airrascal]

My Kahr PM9 is my always gun. The polymer framed Kahrs may have had some problems early on but my specimen has been OUTSTANDING! It caused me to go out and buy a T9 as well. My T9 has been just as good. Don't judge your Kahr until you have about 200 rounds or so through it. It's tight and needs a good break-in period though neither of mine hiccupped more than once or twice early on. I think Kahr is underrated mostly because its lack of name recognition. The longer trigger pull might turn off a few as well but if you appreciate a very-smooth-but-short-for-a-revolver-like pull, you'll love the Kahr. I do prefer the "elite" trigger which all new production Kahrs supposedly have. The early triggers, though smooth, were not quite as nice.

 

[JohnKSa]

All in all, I think you got much more reasonable and reasoned responses than you did on TFL.

Bottom line is if you're not comfortable with your PPK you should get rid of it.

BUT...BUT...BUT I'm starting to worry that you have the "magic gun/magic ammo syndrome."

Guns are not magic. If they're good guns then they do what you tell them to do. Ammunition is not magic. If it's good ammo it pokes a hole where your gun is pointed when you pull the trigger.

If you don't point your gun right, no caliber or gun will make a difference. If you point your gun right, then your gun and caliber choice (within reason) won't make much of a difference.

In short, it's the shooter that makes the BIG difference. The gun and the ammo are the smallest part of the equation. That can obviously be taken to an extreme, but the fact remains that nearly any gun/ammo combination can be effective if shot placement is correct--I've shot enough critters with airguns to know that is true.

When you get into a SHTF situation, you'd better not start thinking that your gun is going to save you--or that your gun choice is going to get you killed. You will need to be thinking about how your TRAINING is going to get you through.

All of this assumes that you have a reliable gun and ammo that will poke a hole most of the way through a person (even if you have to use FMJ to do the trick.)

You need to stop obsessing about your gun/ammo combination and start shooting. If your gun proves unreliable then ditch it. If you find that you can conceal a larger caliber gun and still shoot it effectively then go to a larger caliber.

 

[Denmark116]

To quote myself from the Sig Forum;

The best sig to carry is the one that you are most comfortable with and are most likely to take with you.

I personally am OK and do carry a P232 as my daly. What matters is your comfort level, better to have a .22 with you then a .45 at home if you catch my drift...

And I don't know about you, but I certainly respect a .380 HydraShok... And just like property it is all (shot) location location location....

Just my .02

Denmark

P232 .380
P229 9mm
S&W 686
DW 1911 .45
Corto 1934 .380
QUOTE]

Just my .02

Denmark

 

[Shane333]

Gimme Gimme Gimme...

Magsnubby,

Since you have so many useless guns, why don't you let me take a few off your hands.

 

[glocksman]

You can't go changing the variables like demanding that the .380 perform like a 9mm lugar or .357 mag.

I'm not demanding the .380 perform like a .357 Magnum.
I'm just pointing out that .357 is available in a J sized package that compares well size (if not weight) wise with a lot of .380's.

Of course a .357 snubnose J is hard to control when compared to a .380.

I guess my point is get the maximum controllable power for the size of the gun you'll be carrying. If you can control a .357 snubnose, enjoy.

If you prefer heavier bullet .38's to light bullet .380's, have fun.
If you prefer .380 due to magazine capacity or velocity, great.

However, if your .380 is the size of a 9mm pistol, why not go with the 9mm to begin with? I'd prefer a Kahr over a CZ-83 solely because of the caliber is greater, yet still controllable in the small package.

Of course others may disagree and prefer the .380 due to the lesser recoil.
IMHO, this is a personal decision and there is no 'right' answer.

 

[steelhead]

glocksman and shane333,

Here's a twist . Snubby J-frame in 9MM. Now you can have .357 power without the blast and more control (muuuhaaahaaahaaa) .

 

[Erich]

Those 940s actually reload in a flash, too. I forgot about that in yesterday's post - man, I could reload my 940 as fast as I could reload a PPK. Gotta love those moon clips!

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

With factory ammo I am getting 152 foot pounds.
With handloads I am getting 495 foot pounds.


M1903 [This is an 80 year old, big, solid .380 with good case support]
1) Winchester ammo 95 gr. 805 fps
2) WSP, 8.5 gr. Power Pistol, 158 gr. XTP, seated to 1.090", 1158, 1187 fps [this is 357 mag power]




But the P3AT, which is the pistol I carry, [This is a tiny 6 ounce 380 with terrible case support]:
1) 6.5 gr. 800X, 110 gr .357 XTP, .970" [close to a 9mm load in a smaller volume, so pressure is higher, probably ~ +P+ 9mm]
2) 5.5 gr. Power Pistol, 115 gr Gold Dot [closer to a 9mm load than a 380 load, so this has the power ~ 9mm]


What does it all mean?
Based on my shooting roosters, 22 long rifle hollow points from a rifle have little or no effect in body shots. Head or neck shots are instant take down. So if in a battle and you can't get a head shot or a neck shot with a pistol, put 5 rounds from a .45acp into the body, turn around and run, hoping they bleed to death while chasing you.

 

[Erich]

I love your posts, Clark.

I know you realize that you're insane! (And I mean that in the nicest possible way.)

Holy smokes, 158 grains at 1187 fps . . . from a .380! Great googly moogly, as the Wolf would no doubt say.

 

[halvey]

Dittos for "Clark" loads!

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

This is the one with real promise: 2) 5.5 gr. Power Pistol, 115 gr Gold Dot [closer to a 9mm load than a 380 load, so this has the power ~ 9mm]

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Halvey,
Let me warn you about my loads. Normally I would not carry a load that makes any case bulge or is even within .5 gr of a case bulge. but with the P3AT, the bulges begin with wimpy loads and progres slowly.


115 gr GD Power Pistol , .970" , P3AT, mixed, used brass
3.2 gr., .381" case bulge, RP brand brass
3.2 .3825 Speer
3.2 .375 S&W
3.4 .383 WW
3.5 .3835 Speer
3.6 .376 S&W
3.7 .3835 WW
3.8 .382 RP
3.9 .383 Speer
4.0 .381 RP [This would be about the level of a book load at 20 kpsi]
4.2 .383 RP
4.2 .383 RP
4.2 .383 RP
4.3 .385 WW
4.4 .385 RP
4.5 .384 RP
4.6 .385 RP
4.7 .385 RP
4.8 .387 Speer
4.9 .387 RP
5.0 .392 RP
5.1 .3825 Browning
5.2 .390 WW
5.3 .387 RP
5.4 .388 RP
5.5 .393 WW

Can you see yourself shooting ammo with this big a bulge?
Also, the .970" OAL means the unfired cartridges will not eject.
The P3AT is so tiny and light, I am willing to forgive allot to get it this powerful, but making ammo right on the edge like this is high risk.

 

[airrascal]

Kahr

The Kahr is a pretty good pistol if not a little heavy oin steel form. I also have two CZ-83s, one in .32 and one in .380. I would not hesitate to rely on any of them - including the .32 because it has 15 round mags. So , will it be 6 (PM9), 7 (K9) or 8 (T9) 9mms or 12 (CZ) .380s or 15 (CZ) .32s.

I personally don't like the Walthers beacuase the slide bites me pretty bad. The newer ones have taken steps to prevent this with the lengthened tang. I'd pass on the Walther but not because it's a .380. If it fits me better, I would probably feel differently.

 

[LynnMassGuy]

I wouldn't want to get hit with a .380.

 

[halvey]

I wouldn't want to get hit with a .380.

I hear this over and over on these forums. . I wouldn't want to get hit with a BB gun either, but it won't stop a fight necessarily.

Can you see yourself shooting ammo with this big a bulge?

Nope. I won't and can't. As soon as there are ANY pressure signs I will stop and back off.

What will happen is the recoil will get to me before the pressure signs I'm sure. If I can't control it, it makes no sense to keep going. The only .380 I have is the 7oz Kel Tec, so it's not like some 25 oz Makarov.

Just to be safe:
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I ran 3.3 of Bullseye, which is the max load for Alliant, over for some of the books. 830 fps out of the Kel Tec with a 100 gr bullet. Kind of pathetic really. Recoil wasn't terrible, but I could tell that it was getting to the borderline stage.