Is the .380 enough?

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Call your favorite gunsmith and ask him to make you a barrel
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Before that, investigate the availability of ammo, of dies, of anything you'll need to make use of the caliber now that makarov.com has turned bellyup.

I'd like to leave a comment in support of the arguments made so eloquently by defensory. I believe that his warnings concerning the inadequacy of the ..380 cartridge for SD reliance are well found and easily supported in all of the accumulated serious data on the topic by experts.

A reliance on such pollyannaish statements that 'europeans used to carry them' leaves out that this was done a badge of authority and given up as useless upon the rise of terrorist and criminal activity throughout Europe.

Or "well gee, I might be spotted at work if I carry a larger caliber". Huh? when it's clear that there are same size arms in substantial calibers, and when that argument has no bearing except when a person is at work.

Or 'it's shot placement that matters'. Oh well certainly, but I will submit that no person who relies on that premise has had his or her ability to place a shot tested while that person is enduring the stresses of a real threat to their very life.

Or "people have been killed by a .22, .25. 380, and a tiny sliver of schrapnel" Is truth, but none of those things can reliably effect a STOPPAGE, which is a different thing entirely. The small caliber wound that kills requires either an almost surgical placement or a divine act in accident to kill. This is not reliable and your life should not depend on the substance of the weak argument that your gun has sometimes effected a death. To save your life you need the hope of an immediate stoppage of your assailant.

There's a factor left out and that is that a fabled "stoppage" may often occur as a result of a person being shot ANYWHERE ON THEIR PERSON by a substantial caliber. As it happens this factor is one that I can attest to through very real experience as I HAVE been shot, with pretty poor shot placement thank goodness, in my right leg above the knee by, I'll assume, a rifle bullet, and I will say that the wound itself did not stop me. Once I was over the shock of having my leg slammed HARD I was able to move and even walk but for some critical period I was effectively removed from consideration by the stunning fact of the experience of that traumatic event. A lesser shock I doubt I would have noticed until the end of the exchange.

The only reason for the persistent defense of the reliance upon .380 for personal self defense has to be that the defendor does not really believe that any gun will ever be needed by them for self defense and so they are more concerned with convenience than they are in effectively arming themselves against an attack. Hey, good for you! But............why are you here again?

"It'll never happen to ME" is a very common deception. Who hasn't used it? YOU'll never get in an auto accident, right? Until you do get in one and you are forced to change that tune.

What a shame it will be when the inadequacy of your chosen weapon is proven to you with ultimate finality, and you are dead.
 
krs said:
nalioth said:
Call your favorite gunsmith and ask him to make you a barrel
Click to expand...
Before that, investigate the availability of ammo, of dies, of anything you'll need to make use of the caliber now that makarov.com has turned bellyup.
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Makarov.com? They've got nothing to do with the .32 NAA ( the NAA is short for North American Arms ). No connection between Makarov.com and Ruger, either.
 
i'm no authority but i'm thinkin 4-5 rounds placed center of mass with a .22 rimfire will screw up anyone's evening........................................................
 
nalioth,

Makarov.com used to sell dies, brass, and bullets for .32NAA as well as conversion barrels for the Makarov pistols to that caliber. They also sold NAA Guardians and were apparently instrumental in the design of the wildcat cartridge and in convincing North American Arms to chamber the Guardian in the caliber. They loved it and were prime movers and suppliers to enthusiasts.

Now, with them gone (or almost gone) they've sold out their dies, barrels, brass, and most all other parts for the CZ 50 and 52, as well as the Makarov pistols.

I know that one of the major makers had brought out a load in .32 NAA (was in WW?) but heard that they'd discontinued.

So without the ongoing stimulus of Makarov. com "selling" the concept I'm afraid that it may go by the wayside. Too bad too as it's a very lively little round.
 
I've shot enough .380acp, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Para and .357 mag into used pallets propped up to nail targets onto that I've figured out that I don't want to get shot with any of 'em.
just lately I've been shooting for practice fairly lightly loaded .380acp useing cast slugs from mastercast.com - they still do some damage to that oak planking.
 
Advancements in firearms manufacturing have rendered the .380 essentially obsolete. Like "the king's new clothes", its alleged advantages aren't really there
I guess someone should have told Ruger before they took orders for 87K LCPs before the Vegas shotshow ended. And a 2yr. backlog of orders.
And any school that will refuse to teach the needed skills and techniques for SD based on cal. is missing the idea of training, maybe they should have a .44 mag. min.
Anyone who thinks nothing is better than the .380 let me know, you can load up on PCP and stop by and see how it goes.
 
Who participating in this thread has actually had to fire at another person in SD?
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Baltimore, Maryland, 1973. Resulted in the death of a shotgun-wielding robber.

The only reason for the persistent defense of the reliance upon .380 for personal self defense has to be that the defendor does not really believe that any gun will ever be needed by them for self defense and so they are more concerned with convenience than they are in effectively arming themselves against an attack. Hey, good for you! But............why are you here again?
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Supercilious nonsense. Too many other factors are involved in self-defense, including, but not limited to, physical abilities and dis-abilities, availability of a firearm that one can control and shoot accurately, mode of dress, laws, availability of holster systems, ammunition, and a myriad of other circumstances.

The caliber "required" can be used as though it were superior, right up until the ammunition chosen for the purportedly superior caliber is wrong for the job. There are as many actual test results available for .380's that meet minimum penetration specs, as don't. This was the subject of past threads, look them up. Rifles and shotguns have been found lacking in "stopping power" on a routine basis in documented LEO, and military, encounters. So, the use of ANY handgun may be derisively referred to as:

that the defendor does not really believe that any gun will ever be needed by them for self defense and so they are more concerned with convenience than they are in effectively arming themselves against an attack. Hey, good for you! But............why are you
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There is no mention of caliber in the First Rule of Gunfighting. The ONLY mention of caliber in the set of such Rules, as promulgated in professional schools, is to use the heaviest caliber that you may control, and carry with you.

Simplistic statements such as were made result in those who cannot afford the latest, and supposedly greatest, "serious defensive" firearm to be lost to the community.

A reliance on such pollyannaish statements that 'europeans used to carry them' leaves out that this was done a badge of authority and given up as useless upon the rise of terrorist and criminal activity throughout Europe.
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Again, supercilious nonsense. The truth is that the European Police of the early 20th century were much more likely to become involved in a gun fight than the average American cop. Revolutionary groups ran amuck, smuggling was a national pastime in many areas, and locals were much more likely to fight than submit due to the ease of escape to surrounding nations. In Asia, especially in Hong Kong, the British were embroiled against murderous gangs. The choice of firearm chosen by Fairbarn was the .380 Colt for the Hong Kong Police. These men killed people.

Europe's criminal element after WWII was a bare shadow of itself. The rise of Terrorism, sponsored by Communism at the time, required a more military response, and heavier weapons, as that was what the terrorists were armed with, and they operated in military fashion.

We deal with few terrorists here as citizens. We also deal with few of the mythical 250 lb., drug-crazed, weight-lifters. For them, NO PISTOL is sufficient. NONE.

Arrogantly assuming to tell people that their reasons for carrying any gun, or caliber, is due to something that is an opinion, at best, of a fertile imagination, is ludicrous.
 
Again, supercilious nonsense. The truth is that the European Police of the early 20th century were much more likely to become involved in a gun fight than the average American cop. Revolutionary groups ran amuck, smuggling was a national pastime in many areas, and locals were much more likely to fight than submit due to the ease of escape to surrounding nations. In Asia, especially in Hong Kong, the British were embroiled against murderous gangs. The choice of firearm chosen by Fairbarn was the .380 Colt for the Hong Kong Police. These men killed people.
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Talk about nonsense! You leave out the pertinent fact, although you perhaps unwittingly allude to it, that the adequacy of the arms chosen for your 19th century police forces were adequate only to their time. Even though there may have been hordes of murderous criminal killers to deal with their arms were somewhat less dangerous than they were and certainly less than the then though state of the art .38 Colt you mention.

As to not dealing with terrorists or drug-crazed thugs, well, in the first case be sure to tell george Bush and in the second - thank you for amplifying my point that you are amongst those lucky enough to live in a world that does not require more than your b-b gun or your .380 caliber pistol to assure you. Would that we all could return to nicer times and leave your weightlifters behind us. Err, you do know what the chief recreational exercize activity in our prisons is, don't you? When they emerge those once lilly soft friends you know do very often resemble weightlifters, if they emerge at all.
 
If I do my part, I am not worried about the difference in "effectiveness" between the .380 and 9mm. However, I do not like the recoil impulse from most blowback .380 pistols. In the same form factor of size and weight, I find the recoil of a lock-breech 9mm much more comfortable.
 
Talk about nonsense! You leave out the pertinent fact, although you perhaps unwittingly allude to it, that the adequacy of the arms chosen for your 19th century police forces were adequate only to their time. Even though there may have been hordes of murderous criminal killers to deal with their arms were somewhat less dangerous than they were and certainly less than the then though state of the art .38 Colt you mention.

As to not dealing with terrorists or drug-crazed thugs, well, in the first case be sure to tell george Bush and in the second - thank you for amplifying my point that you are amongst those lucky enough to live in a world that does not require more than your b-b gun or your .380 caliber pistol to assure you. Would that we all could return to nicer times and leave your weightlifters behind us. Err, you do know what the chief recreational exercize activity in our prisons is, don't you? When they emerge those once lilly soft friends you know do very often resemble weightlifters, if they emerge at all.
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It wasn't me who quoted about "A reliance on such pollyannaish statements that 'europeans used to carry them' leaves out that this was done a badge of authority and given up as useless upon the rise of terrorist and criminal activity throughout Europe." Your last sentence implies that they were ineffective in their time of issue, not at all about today. Supercilious nonsense.

The second paragraph starts with a straw-man argument. One, the War on Terror has, but for 9/11, existed outside of the United States as far as the citizenry is concerned. Please, show us the armed conflict between dedicated terrorist cells, and the citizens.

Where I live has nothing to do with the prison population. LOOK at that population. The majority of these men and women aren't hugely muscled weight-lifters, period. Perhaps you should re-consider the friends that you hang out with that are ex-cons.

To be quite frank, I'm getting the idea here that there are those among us to whom only the worst happens, or they think like that. Have you defended yourself as a civilian from what you speak about? Huge, weight-lifting ex-cons? Or terrorists?

This is an excellent comparison between those who actually look around themselves, study the crime statistics locally, and then make an informed choice, versus the imagination prone. Those whose plans always include the worst possible combinations and conditions. There's a difference between buying a vehicle for work, and buying a vehicle for the worst possible conditions that could be encountered. You'll soon go broke with that outlook.

I'm betting that insurance sales-people love that way of thinking.

Perhaps this article might add a little reality to what constitutes enough.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=385054
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gc70, a valid point. My wife likes the old Colt Government Model .380 ACP. She suffers from RA, and the soft-recoil is comfortable for her to shoot meaningful amounts for practice.

She can shoot heavier calibers, but only in commensurately heavier guns. That quickly escalates to the point where the weight of the gun causes dis-comfort in short order. A pity, as she was a big-bore revolver fan, and truly enjoyed shooting them.
 
I have been here a short time, and I have to say I am somewhat amused by the caliber debate type threads here. I am sure there are a ton of them here. Its just human nature to debate such a thing. Its no different of the old chevy vs. ford, pepsi vs. coke, charmin vs. cottenelle, etc...... I have to chuckle. I do find the threads fun to read though. but I cant help but find amusement in the point of view of the folks that insist on carrying a sherman tank for self defense.

It all boils down to personal choice. nobody can predict every single possilbe scenario that COULD happen. sure, to be totally prepared we should all wear full riot gear, carry a 12 gauge, a 45, and a 357 mag. ;) but in the real world its just not that way. heck, LEO's dont even dress like that all the time. why? they dont need to. its not practical.

I just carry what I am comfortable with that I can conceal well. and thats what I advise anyone to do. practice with it, be proficient with it, and be safe and smart.
 
Comments and a warning:

Why is it so important to some of you that others agree with your opinion? That’s all this thread is, a group of opinions. Share yours and let it go! The welfare of the world does NOT hinge on others submitting to YOUR judgment. Here’s the deal: Next time one of you tries to force YOUR opinion on others, next time you make a personal attack or begin name-calling toward others, YOU will be banned.

Please, no smart-aleck replies. Such will be deleted the FIRST time. Next time, the poster will be removed. This is the way it will be. If you don’t like it, appeal elsewhere.

Now, warnings are normally issued on a private basis. Fine. No names are mentioned this time. You know who you are. If any participant in this “discussion” turns up missing, then the rest may understand what happened. Enough said, I hope.

Please, friends - - Let’s let THAT KIND OF STUFF end right here. I’ll leave this thread open for a little longer, just on the off chance nything constructive may still be said.

Johnny Guest
THR Staff
 
Here is one argument that no "mouse-gun" basher will ever mention:

You can shoot him more than once. Quickly.

Remember, a powerful cartridge doesn't necessarily have more firepower. Firepower, by my definition, is the ability to deliver the most damage in a given amount of time. Therefore a moderately powerful cartridge which is easily controlled and kept on target, shooting very rapidly has the most firepower. There are other ancillary benefits: more hits equals more chances at a CNS hit. And if you miss, you can get back on target quickly. You can also engage multiple targets more quickly. And smaller rounds generally have a larger magazine capacity (although this is not true for .380/9mm.)
 
OK--seen with my own eyes:

a .32 acp through a steel helmet, resulting in one round kill.

Seen with my own eyes also: .45 acp--four rounds to the thorax with out killing. The taget fell down due to blood loss.

Pistol rounds are not reliable "manstoppers". They don'[t knock someone down. If someone practices and is confident with a .380, they're better off than being leery of their 9mm or .40 or whatever.

BTW--Massaad Ayoob isn't as well thought of as he thinks.:scrutiny:
 
MR Bill. Smith Wesson is actually ahead of ruger and Kahr. Remember the Sigma in .380? These new .380 are old news if you ask me. Though the ruger copy of the kel-tech does look like a better design than the sigma. I suspect a 9mm LCP is in the works as soon as .380 sales level off
 
Sheesh..............

Seems like a lot of folks just like to argue.

Heres my non-expert take on what I carry. First let me validate myself, my experience with firearms extends some 24 years as an infantryman in the USMC and the USA, all active service. Does that make me a bonifide expert? No.

My choice of carry weapons include a Ruger LCP (.380) and a S&W 351PD
(.22 WMR). Neither of these are considered manstoppers. But try this little experiment in your local hometown and see what happens. Find the busiest street with many pedestrians. Pull out your non-effective .380 or .22 mag and raise it above your head muzzle up and squeeze off one round. Watch the reaction.

Nobody dead, wounded or bleeding, however, I bet there are very few people still walking or hanging around.

My point is, regardless of what you carry, most folks including the BG are not expecting you to be carrying. So buy your wife the .380, teach her how to use it effectively, load her up with some good FMJ ammo, and tell her always to think head shot and always empty the magazine!

No jury is going to convict her for shooting a 300 pound doped up ******* too many times:D
 
to the OP:

Personally, I feel that the .380 ACP round is too small as a primary Self-Defense round. The .32 ACP is even less so. I am of the philosophy that bigger is better, and that one should carry the biggest caliber they can handle.

If recoil is a concern due to fear, injury, or disability, the same argument applies, if a .380 or smaller (YIKES is what I can think of!) is all one can handle due to nerve damage, or something then by all means use it!

If the spouse only likes the .380, then by all means GET IT FOR HER. If nothing else, you have gotten her foot in the door on Self-Defense. Think of the .380 as a gateway cartridge to something more effective if she ever wants to move on.

My spouse HATES recoil and flinches with .22 LR. However, I have gotten her comfortable with firing .38 SPL 148 grain lead wadcutters from a S&W 686. She won't go beyond it, absolutely refuses to. Is this the best thing for her to shoot? No way, but it's the best thing that she's comfortable with, so I don't push the issue. She's come far from her anti-gun days. She also has a Snubby Charter Arms in .32 S&W Long. I use the 98 grain wadcutter loads in that because they make a bigger hold than the LRN bullets do. My next scheme is to get her into a gun safety class that I am not teaching so the whole "spousal baggage" thing isn't a factor.
 
First rule of a gun-fight, have a gun. Have the heaviest caliber that you can control, and be accurate with. Pretty much sums it all up. :)
 
As long as she hits the right spots a .380 should be fine.
I have a P32 bug/deep cover I like ..is fast, reliable and accurate for what it is..but like most mouses, doesn't leave much room for error :)
 
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