Is the .380 enough?

[Smaug]

Kudos to Johnny for stepping in. I hate to see threads reduced to bickering.

I believe there are a couple other factors we should look into here:

1) 380s will give their user the potential for a "0-shot stop." This is what we're after. It is even better than a 1-shot stop.

2) This is just a guess, but I'll wager that a lot of folks who don't know much about guns or calibers choose 380s because of their combination of a handy size, perceived adequate power level, and lack of punishing recoil. These are the same types of folks who may not always place their shots as well as we THR members would.

This is enough to skew the statistics that Ayoob and others have reference to.

Rhetorical Example: A gun owner wannabe walks into a gun shop. Starts looking at handguns for possible use for self defense. He handles a dozen different guns and find that he likes the size & shape of the 380s the best. The clerk mentions that he would be better off with a 9mm or larger, on account of them historically being more effective. He rents a couple guns, and decides he'll take his chances with a 380. He goes to the range, shoots a box of ammo, goes home, and puts the gun in his nightstand or holster. Practices maybe once per year. Do you think this guy can place shots from his 380 as well as most of us could? Doubtful.

This is just one side factory that could skew the statistics.

Here's another one:

A cop has a 40 S&W as his carry piece, and a PPK as his back-up and off-duty piece. He is out running errands, and someone commits a crime. He pulls his gun and shoots the guy. Do you think a 380 with a what, 3" barrel has the same chance of putting the rounds where they count as the 4-1/2" barreled 40? It is hard to compare apples to apples here.

If we could compare shootings with sub-compact 9mm guns to mid-to-full-size 380s, it would be a more fair comparison.

I'm trusting my Bersa 380 and my abilities for home defense duty.

 

[Beatnik]

I've always figured that sometimes you're just going to lose.
I keep a wheelgun at home because it's what the wife can use. (Long story, but she literally can't use autos.)

Does the small capacity bother me? Does the slower reload bother me?
Not really. I figure if I'm facing seven Michael Clarke Duncans, and they can all count to six, then it just must be my time to go.

There may come a time when it's your time, no matter what you're packing. I'll add the one irrefutable fact to this thread: nobody lives forever.

We're trying to skew the odds, that's all. It's a question of economics. Tally up the costs and benefits, and make a reasoned decision. One-shot stopping juiced up ex-cons is only one benefit, in my humble opinion.

I'm seriously eyeballing the LCP because it offers other benefits - namely, going with me just about everywhere. A 380 that is with me wherever I go beats the pants off a Ruger Alaskan that is locked up at home.

 

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

If you find yourself attacked by a 270lb redneck on PCP, OR 3 armed "gangbangers" I would respectfully suggest your 9mm, or 45cal., or 44 cal, or whatever pistol, revolver you happen to prefer for personal defense isn't going to do the job either.

Every person has his/her own capability as regarding a particular choice in a personal defense firearm... Some folks are better off with a smaller caliber firearm they can actually shoot well, and others might be able to have a larger caliber firearm for the same duty... Some will prefer pistols, some revolvers.. But one size doe NOT fit all..

What "fits" is what works for the particular individual, and that is the weapon that person is better served by.

No offense,

Jesse

 

[moooose102]

is it a guaranteed 1 shot stopper? probably not. but, i carry one, ALL the time. i hope, that if i ever HAVE to use it, a couple of shots will do the trick on the worse case scenario. the only way any of us will know for certain, is to actually HAVE to use it. which i sincerely hope no one ever has to do. but it is better to be prepared, than six feet under.

 

[KevininPa]

Yes, it is. I regularly carry a Sig 232SL or a CZ83 and don't feel undergunned.

 

[mr.natural]

Im a bit on the slender side, at 6 ft. and 170 lbs. With a small frame .40 auto, I cant hit the broad side of a barn unless I hold it with both hands and take time to shoot....
However, with my Browning BDA380, I can draw, fire one handed, and place 13 HP's in a 4 inch circle in 4 seconds at 8 yards.
I think I'll stick to MY .380 when Im away from the house..

 

[mljdeckard]

I USED to say .380 is the minimum you should carry, but now there are so many sub-compact options in 9, .40, .45, etc, it's difficult to say that anyone NEEDS one for concealability.

There are a few steps further down you could go. Take advantage of the lower recoil and practice a LOT.

 

[JR47]

Funny, but the same caliber escalation is also apparent in the recommendations for game today. Where the .30-30, or the .35 Remington was once universally recommended for Eastern deer, today the 7mm Magnum, or the various WMSs seem to have become necessary. People used to use the .30-06 on game up to the Brown Bears, and be entirely satisfied with the results, today the magnums are recommended for anything beyond deer/black bear.

The various small caliber handguns were invented, along with their calibers, to be used as easily carried, yet effective, means of self-defense. This in an era where self-defense was more liberally defined.

Today, America's love of bigger equals better has struck. Apparently, it's hit really hard in guns. We have posters talking about penetrating glass, or barriers, and still being capable of an arbitrarily assigned penetration into humans. We talk of the need to engage multiple targets, or the need to engage Moro-like drug-enhanced assailants.

There must be a LOT of people living under Combat conditions out here. 28 Days writ real.

In the end, after all of the pontification and preaching, people will return to whatever they have chosen. If it's a .22 Short Beretta 950BS, or a 2" Ruger in .454 Casull, that's what they'll believe is necessary for them. That's what they'll carry.

Get out there, and shoot. Whatever you choose is fine. If you change your mind at some point, upward or downward, then buy something that reflects your current choice. Practice is way more important than caliber. A miss with a .500 S&W will never beat a hit with a .22 Short. If you believe that you live in the land of Robo-Cop, carry that terra-watt laser, by all means. If you live in a safer place, carry whatever you feel will work, and that you can shoot.

It's all good.

 

[chuckusaret]

I had the displeasure of owning a LCP .380 for a short time, caused me to loose faith in Ruger and swear to never buy another.

 

[mljdeckard]

Modern higher-caliber handguns aren't effective for self-defense NOW. They weren't effective then either, people just didn't have the choices they have now.

 

[krs]

Seems like a lot of folks just like to argue.

Absolutely. Used to make my living at it, now I just live for it.

I could care less what someone carries, or whether they do at all.

 

[earlthegoat2]

In a world of compromises it is the worst one. Unless you are going after something smaller.

ive seen makarovs (9x18) fail to put someone down when double tapped to the center mass so I wouldnt trust a 380 for it either.

It is a gun though and you know what they say about mere presence.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I think we can all agree that .380 does not have as much stopping power as we would like. It does not compare favorably to the .357 magnum, the .40 S&W, or the .45, all of which have comparable practical effectiveness.

On the other hand, it is not possible to make a pocket-sized gun these large calibers. Several manufacturers have tried, and the attempts at .40 caliber pocket guns have all ended in weapons widely believed to be to hot for their size and weight.

If you can carry a .40 S&W practically, by all means do. Failing that, if you can carry a 9mm, do so; there are many choices, some fairly small. If you need a true pocket gun, your choices of guns in production today (not including certain value-oriented manufacturers) are the Rohrbaugh 9mm, guns in .380 or .32 from Seecamp, Ruger, NAA, and Kel Tec. If the Rohrbaugh doesn't work for you because of its cost or other factors, that leaves guns in .380. They're better than the .32, way better than .22 magnum, hugely better than .22 LR or .25 ACP, and light years ahead of a pocket knife.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

+1 A very sagacious post.

 

[JaxNovice]

I saw the new Bond film last night and he put down all kinds of bad guys with single shots from his PPK. Hollywood would never steer any of us wrong!

 

[JR47]

Despite the specter of the huge, drug-crazed homicidal maniac going jihad on you, most people don't like being shot, with even a hypodermic syringe. In fact, they will pretty much leave the area upon presentation of a gun.

I've transported men with FIVE torso shots from 124 gr. JHP +P+ rounds, from a 5" barreled Beretta, two COM, that had to be forcibly restrained on the way to the hospital. I've also called for an ME when a 6-0, 225 pound man was shot ONCE with a .22 lr from an old RG revolver with a 2" barrel. We almost lost a 22 year-old male who had been shot, while running away, from about 15 yards, in the inner thigh with a .380 ACP. It hit the femoral artery, and he nearly bled out, internally. There are an awful lot of places on a human that can be damaged by a bullet that will kill them in just a few minutes, and incapacitate them in less.

Practice with whatever caliber that you've decided is what you carry is far more important than the size of the bullet. Even a .500 Magnum has to hit to be effective.

This thread isn't about LEO use of a hand-gun. CCW is defensive. The idea that you may have to engage targets behind auto glass, or cover, is well beyond the activities of the CCW holder. The weapon is to be used to defend yourself until you can either stop the attack, or disengage safely. This also isn't a sport, where you have to challenge the threat verbally, and give them a "fighting chance".

 

[regal]

With civilian CCW you have to think about when you will shoot. If you are shooting someone beyond 3 yards, odds are good you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

At close range a justified shooting with 7 rounds of .380 is going to stop the attack unless you are a terrible shot.

My honest opinion is we don't need bigger caliber CCW pistols, we need .32 or .380 with more capacity.

I carry a P-32 with 10+1 and a spare 10 rnd mag. I am much better off than carrying a .357 with 5 rounds.
If I could conceal my Glock 17 (20 rounds) I would.

 

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

Hey, the "is the ? (add your round of choice) enough"? is a never-ending story.

Everyone has a different opinion, and I'm sure those opinions lean in the direction of larger and more is better than smaller and fewer..

OF COURSE that's true.. Even in boobs or steaks.

But the facts are that most folks are hampered by circumstance to the extent of what they want to carry concealed, and what they CAN carry concealed. Heck, if I know I'm going to a shoot-out, I'm sticking my 12ga pump riot shotgun down my pants leg.



Trouble with that deal is IF I know in advance there's gonna be a "shoot-out" I'm not going in the first place.. They can just start, proceed, and finish without my participation.

So, after we concede that in the first place we don't want to be involved in a shootout, and generally couldn't carry a shotgun if we were, then we have to compromise and adjust and cc what we reasonably can.

The "reasonably can" deal often precludes a large caliber weapon, and we find ourselves out there with the lessor calibers simply because they tend to be smaller, lighter, and easier to conceal.

For me personally I never leave the house without my puny LWS32 equipped with 6+1 tiny little Speer Gold Dot jhps'.. Not awesome for sure, but better than harsh words in a crisis. IF I'm away from my home area, I cc a compact 9mm pistol (in conjunction WITH my LWS32). That's about as good as it gets for me. A puny 32 and a questionable 9...

But, and you can trust me on this, I WILL have one or both should you meet me on the street. So, at least I'm armed, even if marginally so in some eyes.

There are so many variables in self defense confrontations that caliber, number of rounds, etc. are just two more things that make up the mix, and luck is another. A 22 can kill, a 44mag will not kill all the time.. Shot placement, LUCK, and everything short of, and maybe including Karma effect the situation and all you can do is make sure you are armed and have something to shoot when the shooting starts.

Heck, in Europe for 100 years the 32cal and 380cal killed a zillion folks.. Those that were killed might have a different opinion of a small caliber projectile and what it can to to the puny human body if well presented.

But they "ain't talking"

Crap the Germans alone fought whole wars with the 9mm round.. And did a darn good job with it until the rest of us ganged up on them..

I am, and actually feel pretty good about what I'm carrying.. How about you?

Best Wishes, personal opinion, no offense intended.

Jesse

 

[.303]

a .380 is better than a pointed stick. for ccw, it is hard to beat how small .380's are.

 

[PX15]

.303:

Unless you're being attacked by a vampire? Under those conditions I think the pointed stick would get the call..



Jesse

 

[AdamSean]

Here is the answer to this riddle. It is a combination of choice of ammo and shot placement. I know I can hit what I am aiming at. The rest is up to these new guys. Hornady's new Critical Defense FTX. This is the one on the right next to the standard XTP.

 

[Timthinker]

If I may inquire of the OP, why is your wife attracted to the .380? This is something that has not been addressed in this lengthy thread. I think the answer might help us make some suggestions. I understand the Walther .380s kick more than some of the smaller 9mms on the market. This point might lead her to consider something else. Again, I think her reasons for selecting a .380 are a valid subject to consider. I hope this suggestion helps.


Timthinker

 

[1SOW]

Not with a choice.

P.S. that old west .36 cal is just that - a .36 "cal" but the case is NOT a .380 case, it packed more punch.

A new shooter in our League came with a 380 revolver. He could shoot too.
He hit 3 of 3 steel poppers in the course 'ping'-'ping'-'ping'. (plate steel hinged at the bottom to fall when hit.) None of the 3 fell down. He hit the last one again and it rocked but didn't fall. ANY subsonic 9mm knocks them over easily.

I was convinced at that point that combined with the high cost of .380 ammunition, it was not for me.

My High Standard .22 wouldn't be my defensive weapon of choice, but if it was handy, I expect it too could really discourage an unexpected guest.

IMHO: 9mm is way more effective, much cheaper to shoot, and also can be found in small easy to handle guns..

 

[LightningMan]

This has been a long thread topic "is a .380 enough" and IMHO there is no real answer to it, maybe sometimes it is and other times its not, but all can agree it better than nothing. A .380 is what I carry most often, sure I wish it were a .357 or bigger but its what I can carry comfortably in a pocket without needing a special holster/harness or excessive clothing to hide it. The way I feel about it is if I had to use it, best case senario; attacker sees gun and runs, results no shots fired. A worse case; attacker shoots first, I shoot back, reguardless who wins and we are both hit, I know that if I don't make it out alive, at least I marked my killer with a couple of bullets that will need to be explained in the emergency room. Hopefully the police will put 2 & 2 together and figure that this guy was my killer and he will spend time in jail for it. My 2 cents LM.

 

[hitbackfirst]

With civilian CCW you have to think about when you will shoot. If you are shooting someone beyond 3 yards, odds are good you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

I would think 7 yards would be the minimum distance to fire at. Multiple studies have shown that even a trained LEO should fire on an attacker armed with a knife if he gets closer than 7 yards. If approached by an armed assailant in a parking lot or similar location, I would feel fully justified in firing at 10 or 15 yards. (If you wonder how fast an attacker could close on you from 15 yards, just think about the last football game you watched!)