If you can't measure something with some degree of accuracy how do you distinguish them?
You literally just did I quoted it.
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Is the age of the .40 S&W (and maybe .357 SIG) over?
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The point is that the professionals often cannot distinguish them.
From that they conclude that they do not have materially different effects.
1/3 of a second is .33
.16 splits are pretty attainable with a 40
.11 splits with a 9mm yeah OK
Appeal to authority fallacy 100%.
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Whoop de do.
The expert continues to try argue, almost alone, in the face of widely accepted conclusions RE: the influence of recoil on effective defensive handgun shooting.
He doesn't like what Golden and mcb have said, so he ignores it.
Look: I was among many who believed that the.45 was surely superior to the 9mm for defensive use, but studying publicly available data, training, and listening to and accepting expert opinion to the contrary caused me to change my mind.
I have not had to resort to characterizing scientifically based, developed, peer reviewed, agency approved, and widely accepted official reports as "bogus" because of my own unwillingness to deal with the effects of cognitive dissonance.
Most people do pay attention toe expert medical opinion, and few of us here are qualified to develop our own. Do you consider yourself qualified to discuss the physical effects of handgun wounding?
You are arguing solely for the sake of argument, and with little finesse.
You make a lot if statements here that when pressed to back them up you can't.
I have literally asked a dozen questions and you have no answers.
I no longer fault anyone who questions experts. There are endless examples of contradictions and even outright lies by experts. I now wonder why anybody would wholeheartedly believe and quote any expert without several (*) after the quote.
I’m not convinced 40 is much better than 9mm though. We all know it’s really close and some people probably benefit shooting the 9. Others can handle the 40 and its debatable if the splits matter much in their hands.
The 40 is loosing market share but it’s still a great cartridge that will be around for decades.
I’m not convinced 40 is much better than 9mm though. We all know it’s really close and some people probably benefit shooting the 9. Others can handle the 40 and its debatable if the splits matter much in their hands.
The 40 is loosing market share but it’s still a great cartridge that will be around for decades.
30+ years of hunting, living, discussing firearms and the effects of wounding from firearms with two Veterinarians. Reading Fackler, Patrick, Courtney and even Marshal among others. Shooting uspsa at a local level with 2 master and 3 grand masters including a world champion (Fred Craig).
Yeah I have a pretty good handle on what I'm talking about.
PS I have a nephew that's a vascular surgeon, he's pretty busy but I'll see if he'll take my calipers in the operating room with him.
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mcb
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Not sure I follow. 160+ competitors, with many of the nations best shooters represented, get together for a match (UPSPSA Limited National) and only 12% even attempt the match with a Minor gun and of those only Nils (A world champion) manages to get into the top 15% of the match. This seem to support my point that Majors scoring advantage trumps Minor's recoil and capacity advantages.
I almost forget the Redheaded step child...
The only division that Minor dominates is Revolver but the Minor Revolver has a 33% capacity advantage over a Major revolver. But revolver shooters are weird!I have answered all of your questions, but apparently not to your satisfaction.
And yet you dispute that medical experts often cannot distinguish among wounds made by different service rounds, and you characterize reports that are based on their findings as "bogus".
The fact that a young athletic world class world champ was still 2 seconds slower over that many rounds tells me the speed advantage shooting 125 PF might not be that 50% faster split get an extra round off in 1/3 of a second that Kleanbore claims.
Once again I don't dispute that they cannot I dispute the why. The FBI and you are saying it's because there's no difference. I know it's because you can't measure elastic mush with any accuracy.
How do you measure elastic mush with accuracy to .05"?
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mcb
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It would take a lot more detail analysis to make that assertion with any confidence. I suspect that Nils was shooting a Canik (typical a striker fired production gun, and his current sponsor) against many other shooter shooting some form of 2011 that would have both a weight and trigger advantage.
In my own personal shooting I have not found as big a difference as Kleanbore claims. My
Production vs Limited/L-10 splits where only a couple hundreds of a second different and even my Revolver splits were only maybe .05-.07 seconds behind my semi-auto splits and I am just a lowly B-class (very nearly A in Revolver) shooter. But I have been playing this game long enough that I have found very few competitors that can or even try to claim that they can shoot Major faster than Minor in full size competition guns. With the exception of Open guns but they have comps, red-dots and weight helping them that the other division can't use.
ETA: trying to stay sort of on topic despite how fun the caliber war is and despite who might win this minor battle in that never ending campaign. 40S&W is still loosing favor in the self-dense and LEO markets. Not that I care much I just started carrying 455 Webley as my woods gun!
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"Kleanbore claims"? Really. Quit quibbling. I simply pointed out that a person running at 15 feet per second--and that's a person of average fitness-will cover five feet in 1/3 second.
That's a fact, not a claim.
Use 1/5. Use1/4.
I have not so stated. I am not qualified.
""The FBI" , in its official report, and those they quoted, and others who have contributed here have stated that they do not discern a difference, and from that, they have concluded that there is no material difference in effectiveness.
Why would anyone try? Did "the FBI" claim that they had?
In my defense I've never claimed faster I said negligible and not shooting 125 minor but SD level which would be 150-155.
My current Winchester Defend 40 is 166 PF my Speer 124+p gold dots are 155 PF
You claimed the possibility of an extra hit on a BG advancing from 5 feet. I'm not disputing the time I'm disputing your extra hit.
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It took me a bit to place him, but I finally found him in the 1996 IPSC Modified Division...which was discontinued 10 years ago and rolled into Open. There were 11 shooters in the Division as opposed to the almost 400 in Open and 200 in Standard (what we know as Limited). Compared to Standard, he would have placed 10th (being down 92 points).
My mentor, also a GM, placed 6th in that Championship and has repeatedly stated that shots cannot be placed as quickly and as accurately with the .40 as they can be with a 9mm. He doesn't have a caliber bias as he has shot for H&K as well as SIG. He also builds custom 1911...as well as SIGs and H&Ks. He built the first 10mm SIG 220 and consulted on the factory model when they decided to offer it
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