Brownings Greatest Design: Hi-Power

[sturmgewehr]

Here in the U.S. many consider the 1911 to be the greatest handgun design by John Browning. Globally speaking, the 1911 never achieved much success in military and law enforcement circles.

The Hi-Power was Brownings last handgun design before passing away in 1926. By 1935 the Hi-Power was well on its way to becoming the most successful military/police handgun - ever. It was adopted by over 50 countries and countless police agencies. To this day is a highly cherished handgun around the world. It's a shame he didn't live to see how great his final pistol would become.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGpHY6LZPHQ

I picked this pistol up out of Shotgun News for $425. It's a European import, most likely an old police service pistol.

Questions and comments are welcome.

 

[browningguy]

I agree with your sentiment.

 

[loadedround]

I can't agree with you more!

 

[surjimmy]

I do love the HP, but I totally disagree. 1911 IMHO is his best design, I base this not only on personal preference but by the number of manufactures now making the 1911. Please before I get blasted, may favorite pistol is the 1911 followed close by the HP. Here are 2 of my favorites, Matching pair of customs by a Old Master Austin Behlert. The Colt is a 1924, and of course the Browning Hi-Power.

 

[Ala Dan]

1911's all the way;BHP's just don't fit~!

 

[wally]

JMB really only deserves about half the credit for the HiPower I can't remember the name of the FN employee in Belgium who deserves the other half.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Dieudonne Saive is the FN guy that finished the development. i don't know that I would give him half of the credit, but he did have a hand in bringing it to production.

 

[sturmgewehr]

The 1911 is big here in the U.S. I prefer the 1911 over the Hi-Power personally. However, the world loves the Hi-Power. 50 nations adopted it. In war zones around the world the Hi-Power is a cherished companion, one of the most valued handguns you can have. It's right up there with the AK in popularity. The 1911 never caught on outside of the U.S.

 

[rellascout]

Dieudonne Saive certainly finished the pistol. He designed the staggered column mag, the thumb safety, the mag disconnect, the hammer it was originally a striker and is the one who designed the final profile of the slide which IMHO goes a long way to making the BHP what it is.

You are over simplifying the reality of the design process by calling it JMB's design. That is simply not the case. You are really misrepresenting the development of the pistol for what reason I do not understand.

 

[Dentite]

It's true, the design was finalized by Dieudonné Saive.

What would have been interesting to me would be what the Hi-Power would have been if JMB didn't have to design it around the Colt owned 1911 patents and didn't have to meet the French military requirements (mag disconnect for example). Now maybe it wouldn't have been any better than the GP35 as we know it but it would be interesting to see.

I personally find the BHP to be one if not the most beautiful pistol designed

A couple of mine:



I have a weakness for polished blue and walnut:

 

[rellascout]

Tell Argentina & Norway that no one else liked the 1911. Yes the BHP was more widely adopted but other people adopted and used the 1911. Sorry but you are telling half truths... I am not sure what your goal is but you continue to misrepresent the facts.

 

[TennJed]

I would say the Hi-Power's popularity has a lot to do with it's caliber also. Hard to compare a 1911 and Hi Power without talking about the difference in the 9mm & 45acp. 9mm is overall s much more popular round.

 

[rellascout]

I would say the Hi-Power's popularity has a lot to do with it's caliber also. Hard to compare a 1911 and Hi Power without talking about the difference in the 9mm & 45acp. 9mm is overall s much more popular round.

So true. The 9mm caliber was a huge part of the BHPs popularity.

 

[csa77]

I own both. had my 1911 about 12 years before the MKIII hi power. I greatly prefer my hi power over the 1911.
I also prefer the slow push of the 45 acp more then the snap of the 9mm but gun for gun I like the hi power much more

 

[sturmgewehr]

If you walk into a gun shop and say, "Robert Fremont and Jim Sullivan were two of the best small arms designers ever." you would be met with blank stares.

Everyone knows Eugene Stoner designed the M16. Well, not really. He designed the AR10 and Robert Fremont and Jim Sullivan designed the M16 based on Stoners original design. There was a lot of work in making the AR10 a AR15, far more than just making the parts smaller. However, Stoner gets the credit as he should.

The pictures of the early Hi-Power are interesting, but they don't tell the whole story. It's easy to look at the prototype and think "wow, that's really different".

The Browning 1900 was the early prototype of the 1911.



Sure, looking at the picture you would think it looks similar to a 1911 but you could convince someone that it had nothing to do with the 1911 based just on a picture of it. But it was a 1911 at heart and it was an early evolutionary step. If someone took this and finished it into a 1911, Browning would still deserve credit.

FN did an injustice to Saive perhaps. If it were truly his handgun, they should have named it the Saive Hi-Power. As such, they gave credit to Browning and so do I.

I do appreciate Saive taking over in Brownings absence and completing his work though.

 

[rellascout]

Complete red herring... We are not talking about M16s we are not talking about development of the 1911s design. We are talking about your miss representations of the BHP.

I am not sure why you feel the need to re-write history.

 

[Auto426]

You yourself said in a thread over on The Firing Line:

Just because earlier prototypes of the 1911 exist prior to 1900, they weren't 1911's. They had some of the features, but the gun took its final shape well after 1900. The Colt M1900 is not a 1911, no parts interchange.

The same applies to the Hi Power and Browning's original Grand Rendement. While one layed the basis for the other, they are completely different pistols, as no parts interchange. It just so happens that they come from different designers. Browning certainly has his fingerprints on the Hi Power, but to give no credit at all to Dieudonné Saive, especially when he was responsible for the staggered column magazine that made the pistol so revolutionary, is just plain wrong.

 

[MCgunner]

The BHP had MANY good improvements over the 1911, functional improvements that are used in most of the modern autoloaders made today. The 1911 seems almost crude by comparison. And, I prefer the hand filling grip frame of the BHP to the tiny little single stack. But, that's a personal ergo thing. I don't own one, just pontificating on a better gun design. I used to own 1911s, but got rid of 'em.

 

[sturmgewehr]

How ya doing, Rellascout? I see you're still trolling my posts. It's always great to see my fans swing by.

 

[sturmgewehr]

The same applies to the Hi Power and Browning's original Grand Rendement. While one layed the basis for the other, they are completely different pistols, as no parts interchange. It just so happens that they come from different designers. Browning certainly has his fingerprints on the Hi Power, but to give no credit at all to Dieudonné Saive, especially when he was responsible for the staggered column magazine that made the pistol so revolutionary, is just plain wrong.

You're taking my quote out of context. That was a discussion regarding the date of manufacture. That had nothing to do with who designed the pistol. I'm sure no parts interchange with the prototype Hi-Power and the final version just like the 1900 vs the 1911 but that can't be used to deny the heritage.

Saive deserves credit for finishing the pistol in Brownings absence but I still firmly believe its Brownings baby, as does the world and even FN given the name of the weapon. If I were writing a book about the Hi-Power vs. posting a 7 min video I would bring up his contribution. However, it's quite common for people to finish other designers work and not be mentioned in every discussion of the firearm. That's why I brought up the M16 and that's why I will bring up Kalashnikov here in a moment.

Most people don't know that Kalashnikov wasn't the actual designer of the AK, they think he designed it by himself. They don't know that it was the product of two design teams and he only over saw the merger of the two teams and helped to steer the team towards the final product.

Will you argue that Kalashnikov doesn't deserve credit for the rifle that bears his name? If I posted a video about the AK and didn't mention this would you jump on me for not giving credit to those who actually designed the AK?

I'll answer for you - no, you probably wouldn't. Most people wouldn't.

 

[C0untZer0]

Every so often someone will start a thread about which 1911 in 9mm to get, and I never understand why they don't just get a BHP or CZ.

I sure miss my BHP.

 

[Auto426]

Saive deserves credit for finishing the pistol in Brownings absence but I still firmly believe its Brownings baby, as does the world and even FN given the name of the weapon. If I were writing a book about the Hi-Power vs. posting a 7 min video I would bring up his contribution. However, it's quite common for people to finish other designers work and not be mentioned in every discussion of the firearm. That's why I brought up the M16 and that's why I will bring up Kalashnikov here in a moment.

But that's it. Saive didn't finish an incomplete design. The Grande Rendement that Browning developed was a complete design and even it was even patented. Saive took that design and modified just about every single aspect of it over a period of almost 10 years, creating a new design. Browning had no input at all on the new design, since he died before it was even completed.

It would take all of a few seconds to mention that Browning wasn't solely responsible for the Hi Power, so I'm not buying the excuse for the 7 min video either.

 

[bullturkey]

The 1911 was a great pistol in 1911. I would write more but a 1911 owner I know is installing an automatic transmission in his model T. According to him the greatest car ever made, after that installing a FLGR in his 1911 I picked up for him at a gun show.

 

[TennJed]

The 1911 was a great pistol in 1911. I would write more but a 1911 owner I know is installing an automatic transmission in his model T. According to him the greatest car ever made, after that installing a FLGR in his 1911 I picked up for him at a gun show.

I see your point considering the Model T is still as popular as the 1911. I personally get sick of seeing every automobile company producing their own Model T. I espically hate the Japanese car makers coming out with the "tatical" Model T with headlights

Don't take this the wrong way, because I love seeing humor here, but IMHO that is a bad comparision. The Model T died because it did not remain a good car in modern times. The 1911 holds it's own very well in present time

 

[jehicks87]

Nice video, Sturmgewehr! I've been interested in the BHP for a few years, but I already have a Beretta and can't justify the cash outlay for a pistol that appears to be much the same. I noticed that you have (or had) a Beretta 92 for a while, what are your opinions and observations about the practical advantages to one or the other?