Brownings Greatest Design: Hi-Power

[1911Tuner]

Not only did John Browning not design the High Power, he never saw one. He designed the Grande Rendement, which resembled the High Power about as much as the 1911 resembled a Glock. The project was shelved, and Browning was working on a stack barrel shotgun when he died of a heart attack in the FN factory.

Like the 1911, the High Power was designed on the request of a military entity. Thus, as with any contract pistol, whatever feature that entity asked for...it got. The Grip safety and thumb safety were requested on the 1911, and it was delivered. The grip safety wasn't requested, and the High Power didn't have one. If the French had asked for one, the High Power would be wearing one today. Bet on it.

Browning's pistol was too big, and it was rejected. Saive waited until Colt's patents expired so he could incorporate many of Browning's ideas into the P35...trimmed it down...and finished the project in late 1934...and it made its debut in 1935...nearly 9 years after Browning died.

So, while it's true that Browning's ideas were used on the High Power, to attribute the pistol to him is a misstatement. The belief that he "corrected the mistakes" of the 1911 is a myth.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Dieudonne Saive is the FN guy that finished the development. i don't know that I would give him half of the credit, but he did have a hand in bringing it to production.

A hand in bringing it into production? Without Saive, there never would have been the Hi Power.

The Hi-Power was Brownings last handgun design before passing away in 1926.

The Hi-Power was not the last handgun Browning designed and that was produced. That gun is the 1927 Grand Rendement which was the predecessor to the Hi Power. http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/browning-hi-power/

But that's it. Saive didn't finish an incomplete design. The Grande Rendement that Browning developed was a complete design and even it was even patented. Saive took that design and modified just about every single aspect of it over a period of almost 10 years, creating a new design. Browning had no input at all on the new design, since he died before it was even completed.

Right. Not only that, Saive made several crucial changes to the 1927.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/browning-hi-power/

By 1935 the Hi-Power was well on its way to becoming the most successful military/police handgun - ever.

Not exactly. By 1935, the final version of the gun had yet to be completed and wasn't even in production.

sturngewehr, in the video you noted that the 1911 never caught on outside of the US. That isn't correct. While the 1911 may not have had the popularity of the Hi Power outside of the US, 1911 has been used by numerous countries around the world and has been successful. See 1911: Worldwide Success here...
http://books.google.com/books?id=mQ...a=X&ei=mYLMT_G7A4rm2QWA-LHaCw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBA

Not only successful, but also produced in several other countries.

 

[Lothar]

I enjoyed your video, Sturmgewehre.

Regardless of which designer had the bigger hand in creating this pistol, it remains one of the best handguns ever made, to this day. I would give up every other gun that I own, including my more expensive 1911, before I gave up my Hi-Power.

 

[Ash]

But the High Power clearly comes from the Grand Rendement, and his hand is clearly evident in the final product, including the trigger arrangement and other things. I give credit to Saive, but his real design fame (and deserved credit) was the FAL and its predecessor. It's one thing to improve, even drastically, an existing design. It's another to go from the ground up. By the way, giving Saive credit for a double-stack magazine is like giving Browning credit for the High Power. James Lee designed the box, double-stack magazine before Saive was even born.

Glock guys should be happy that Browning designed the pistol with a striker (which is the cause of the somewhat odd trigger-bar arrangement, Saive merely continued it to a sear on the exposed hammer).

CZ75 and SIG 210 guys will note that Browning's last design incorporated the reverse slide-rail arrangement.

No matter what, his design ideas are still incorporated in most pistols being used today. Indeed, while Saive's modifications/improvements to the design gave us the High Power, Browning's choice of a striker (while even at that time already done by others) was, when compared with the striker-fired poly guns that are all the rage today, more forward thinking than Saive's return to the hammer. (Saying that, I prefer Saive's notion of pistols with hammers).

Virtually every auto pistol today shows elements from Browning's last design.

 

[Husker_Fan]

I agree that Saive had a huge impact on the gun, but a lot of the features that make a hi-power a hi-power are in the patent posted above. The bushing integral with the slide, frame cam and barrel camming surfaces, and the trigger and sear geometry are all there.

 

[vaupet]

I am a bit puzzled bij the 1911 with exercito argentina. I always believed the argentines used (and still use) FAL and BHP, can anyone enlighten me?

As were the British so in the Falkland, both sides were served by identical smaal arms, IIRC

Peter

 

[Ash]

Before, during, and for a long while after WWII, Argentina used the 45acp round, as did the Norwegians. Argentina purchased Colt 1911's, then got permission to produce their own under license as the 1927. While the 1927 was produced (many were made post war), the Hispano-Suizza affiliated company HAFDASA made an evolved Star pistol in 45acp called the Ballister-Molina (though Ballister-Rigout (sic) was its first name). It wasn't until later that they went with the HP. To their credit, they always built either original designs or bought licenses from the original companies such as Colt or FN.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

John Moses wasn't going to live forever. At some point in our lives, someone is going to pick up after us and either carry on what we do, or bury it with us. In the world of gun development, someone was bound to design new guns,, or revise old ones, and we are probably fortunate that Saive followed JMB. What a great "collaboration".

 

[vba]

I'll take the 1911. Because the HP has no barrel bushing it is somewhat harder to accurize. The trigger on the HP is also harder to work with as Browning had to use a more complicated trigger linkage mechanism than found on the 1911.

I also like .45 ACP.

 

[John Holbrook]

Here is my current stable of HPs. Top is a MK III, middle is an Israeli police with nite sights, and bottom is a MK II....



And a MK III with nite sights..

 

[MCgunner]

I am a bit puzzled bij the 1911 with exercito argentina. I always believed the argentines used (and still use) FAL and BHP, can anyone enlighten me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballester-Molina

An interesting note, during early WW2, 1940, the German pocket battleship "Admiral Graf Spee" was scuttled in the Montevideo, Uruguay harbor entrance. The Argentines salvaged the steel from that ship, some of the best in the world at the time used in the armor, and produced runs of Ballester Molinas from it, or so I've read, anyway. I saw this thread last night after I laid down the book I'm currently reading, Andrew Roberts, The Storm of War. I had just finished the story of the Admiral Graf Spee and told my wife of it and the Argentine pistols made from it, then I come to check this thread and see one. How timely.

 

[rellascout]

Complete and total hack job of history by sturmgewehr. Many people in the thread have pointed that out but he refuses to acknowledge that he is incorrect on the facts and his interpenetration of them. For some reason I cannot understand he refuses to admit where he has misstated the history around the BHP.

Here in the U.S. many consider the 1911 to be the greatest handgun design by John Browning. Globally speaking, the 1911 never achieved much success in military and law enforcement circles.

I and others have pointed out that the 1911 was used extensively by the Norwegians and Argentina which directly refutes this claim by sturmgewehr. Others have also pointed out it it as much about the non-adoption of the 45 ACP as it is about the non-adoption of the 1911 because of its design.

The Hi-Power was Brownings last handgun design before passing away in 1926. By 1935 the Hi-Power was well on its way to becoming the most successful military/police handgun - ever.

Again wrong. As Double Naught Spy pointed out in 1935 is was not even in production. If it was not in production how could it have been well on its way..... ? Even if we grant you that it was being produced in it current form it was a result of Saive's work that got the pistol approved and into production. JMB's last patent pistol design the Grand Rendement was never put into production.

It was adopted by over 50 countries and countless police agencies. To this day is a highly cherished handgun around the world. It's a shame he didn't live to see how great his final pistol would become.

This is true. The BHP is a popular design and it has been used and copied by many people like FEG, FM, CD & Acrus just to name a few. In the end if JBM had lived we have no idea what the BHP would have end up looking like. I image it would have been similar because as 1911Tuner pointed out the French contract dictated a lot of the design elements which Saive incorporated in the final product. Saive to my eyes really gave the BHP its near perfect slide profile which IMHO makes it one of the best handling pistols ever made. JMB's Grand Rendement lacks that IMHO.

Stating the true history of the pistol and Saive's roll in making it the pistol we all love today does not take away from JMB. It simply is stating the truth and the truth is what it is. Oh well just because I do not agree with his failed attempt at a history lesson I still love the BHP. I am current down to just four.

 

[Husker_Fan]

rellascout,
I drool over that second one with the C&S parts and Spiegel grips every time you show it. That is exactly how I want to set one up some day.

 

[kcshooter]

I don't see how this is his greatest even if he had designed it.

He created an impressive number of handguns, rifles, machineguns, and shotguns.

I'd say his greatest should go to the gas operated machine gun M1895.


But at the bare minimum, you should have factual information presented here.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Browning 1900 was the early prototype of the 1911. Sure, looking at the picture you would think it looks similar to a 1911 but you could convince someone that it had nothing to do with the 1911 based just on a picture of it. But it was a 1911 at heart and it was an early evolutionary step. If someone took this and finished it into a 1911, Browning would still deserve credit.

Uhhhh...no. They're similar in that they're both self-loaders and they're both short recoil operated, but that's where the similarity ends. The heart of the 1911 and the High Power is the tilt barrel/front slide dismount system.

Getcha some educatin'.

Clicky

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4JQEmY08hg

 

[MCgunner]

Did anyone picture an Inglis?

 

[Ash]

rellascout, FM builds there under license. CD made theirs from FEG parts - ditto for the Kareem in Israel and the Mauser M80SA. FEG has been gone more than a decade now. All that is left is Arcus in Bulgaria and Norinco in China making copies, plus FM making a licensed version of the one FN makes.

 

[rellascout]

rellascout, FM builds there under license. CD made theirs from FEG parts - ditto for the Kareem in Israel and the Mauser M80SA. FEG has been gone more than a decade now. All that is left is Arcus in Bulgaria and Norinco in China making copies, plus FM making a licensed version of the one FN makes.

FM no longer runs under a lic. IIRC but I could be wrong I do not follow the clone end of BHPs that much. There is no need for lic since the patents have long expired. They did buy equipment from FN at one time and made BHPs like they made 1911s under lic but that designation no longer applies. IMHO

Also my post did not say anything about current production of the FEG clones or any of the other clones. I was simply pointing out that the gun has been copied by many people. I will take you at your word that Arcus, Norinco and FM still manufacture them. I personally see no reason to buy a clone or copy when you can still get real deal BHPs around the $500 mark. So again I will defer to those purchase BHP clones.

 

[dogtown tom]

Ash rellascout, FM builds there under license. CD made theirs from FEG parts - ditto for the Kareem in Israel and the Mauser M80SA. FEG has been gone more than a decade now. All that is left is Arcus in Bulgaria and Norinco in China making copies, plus FM making a licensed version of the one FN makes.

The license granted by FN to manufacture the Hi Power in Argentina expired in the 1970's. FM continued to produce the HP and even went so far as to mark the slides "FM Browning" until FN threatened legal action.

FM has not manufactured a licensed copy of the Hi Power since then.

 

[dogtown tom]

rellascout Complete and total hack job of history by sturmgewehr.

This is an understatement.

 

[mavracer]

By the way, giving Saive credit for a double-stack magazine is like giving Browning credit for the High Power. James Lee designed the box, double-stack magazine before Saive was even born.

Lee's magazine is a staggered feed, Saive designed a double stack mag that feeds from a single point. they seem to be popular these days.

While Siave certainly deserves credit for the final touches on an increadible weapon, I know the P35 is heavily influenced by Browning's Grand Rendement also he incorperated expired Browning patents in the final product. I'd also imagine spending as much time with "THE MAN" as Siave did had to influence Siave himself quite a bit.
Love my BHP

 

[jimbo555]

The rest of the world is in love with the high power because their wrists are too weak to handle a 45!

 

[spotch]

As someone who hasn't ever shot a hipower, but has shot a 1911, I often wonder how the similar the experience is between the two. I really enjoyed the 1911 I shot, but already own one 9mm and would really hate to feed the 1911 lol.

 

[Ash]

I have owned two 1911's, but own no more. Ironic, I suppose, because I still favor the 45acp.

I suppose by FM, I meant they did not rip off FN. Being out of patent, anybody can make one now, if they reverse-engineer. FM doesn't have to, because they have the drawings already - which they paid for. FN knew that when the patents expired (in those parts of the world where they do) the design would be open to use (which is okay, since FN waited until Colt's Browning patents expired, it's the way things go). FN made money on the design in what ways they could. They were not naive businessmen, they knew - and know - well how to play the game. They did the same for the FAL, too.

They aren't being hurt by FM or Arcus.

You know, owning both CZ and CZ clones & copies (there are differences), I once thought solely of owning 9mm CZ's, and clones/copies in other calibers. The Springfield Armory P9 in 45acp really is a better pistol than the CZ-97 (and I really didn't want to believe that until I owned a CZ-97 - great pistol but too big). Of course, SA doesn't do the CZ thing anymore, so no big deal for CZ.

But there comes a time when the newcomer actually makes an improvement to the original that is worthy - sometimes even better. As much as I like the CZ design, I consider Tanfoglio's modifications superior. Some might want to argue execution of the improvements, and I won't get into that, but Tanfoglio's design improvements actually make a better pistol. I have a Jericho with a frame-mounted safety that is a better pistol than my CZ75. It is simpler where simplicity improves it (no magazine brake) and has a better firing pin block design (that Tanfoglio introduced before CZ did). As a result, it has a better trigger.

My point is that companies began to produce a better 1911 than Colt. Today, folks generally don't say "want a 1911, get a Colt." Some do, of course, but not that many. Most tend to suggest something other than a Colt.

FN is different, of course, because Ed Brown does not make a High Power. FEG made a good clone, and for a while was something of a Tanfoglio of the High Power world, making parts for others. But, they went belly up. FM and Arcus (for American sake) is it, and both of them use. Other than Arcus, I'm not even sure there are any new High Powers coming into the country other than the FN ones.

So, to get new (and not new old stock) you really have few choices. FN, or Arcus. Nothing against the Bulgarians, but the Arcus has always for me been a synonym for ugly. I know, form, function, beauty, yeah, yeah, yeah, but its ugly.

It seems odd that as ubiquitous as the High Power once was, it seems a design frozen in time. Everybody, his brother, and SIG, makes a 1911. If the 45 is such a lousy round by many folk, why is this? What is it about the High Power that has caused so few copy makers? After all, most who have have gone under or no longer import here.

Is it merely because there are more 9mm designs out there to choose rather than the fewer 45?

 

[miles1]

The rest of the world is in love with the high power because their wrists are too weak to handle a 45!

Or maybe they love the BHP because they are a better design?