Is there a concern about runout on pistol loads?

[nevadabob]

I got sloppy the other day and loaded a couple of 9mm rounds that didn't feel quite right going in on my Lee single stage press. The result was 2 "perfectly wobbly" rounds. They are as wobbly as the day is long. But it prompted me to check on Youtube. No videos on pistol load runout but a bunch on rifle loads. I know that my 2 loads are bad, end of story. No need to measure them. But does anyone ever measure pistol load runout on a fresh batch of reloads? I know that I'm a recovering perfectionist and this may be part of the old nature stirring up.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Never checked run out.

 

[AJC1]

Yes it's still important to accuracy. Is it something I monitor no. I shoot a lot of pistol calibers in carbines so the same issues people have with rifle become apparent at range...

 

[Starter52]

Forty years handloading. Two dozen calibers or more.

Ummm, what is "runout"?

 

[LiveLife]

9mm ... wobbly" rounds

Is there a concern about runout on pistol loads?

Yes.

9mm wobbly rounds = Tilted bullets often evidenced by uneven/one sided case neck bulging

I like to see even bulging around case neck which indicate straighter bullet seating for more consistent neck tension. And for small internal case volume 9mm, small changes can significantly affect chamber pressure.

In addition to even case neck bulging/neck tension, I also prefer no bullet setback when function test checking rounds fed/chambered from the magazine for greater accuracy.

 

[Skgreen]

Forty years handloading. Two dozen calibers or more.

Ummm, what is "runout"?

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US0G0&p=bullet+run+out+definition

 

[film495]

I don't check runout, but - anything that doesn't look like the others or if they all look like they have a problem, bulges or whatever, they have failed QA and go in the fail/scrap bin.

 

[Rule3]

Now you have to buy one of these!


Got any pictures of the wobble rounds??

https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/steps-to-minimize-bullet-run-out/detail.htm?lid=16099

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

If primers are not set deep enough. You will have wobble.

 

[Mark_Mark]

this has solved all my pistol seating problem

Noe is a good company, wish I heard of them sooner

 

[nevadabob]

CoalCrackerAl...My primers are all set to spec.
Rule3...No pics, I've dismantled the offending rounds. Mine looked like the fellow on the left. Great pic! I appreciate the Sinclair link. I'm wondering if the concentric device can be adjusted to measure a round shorter than a rifle round?

Other thoughts...Besides my sloppiness in the seating process, I'm thinking the real culprit may be the seating stem in my Lee die not liking the RMR 135 FMJ flat points. I do load other brand flat points (115's, 122's, & 147's) with no issues. Round nose in any size has not been a problem. But I really like the RMR 135's. And only 2 have not loaded well.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm thinking the real culprit may be the seating stem in my Lee die not liking the RMR 135 FMJ flat points ... I really like the RMR 135's. And only 2 have not loaded well.

If you used longer resized case to set the flare amount, you could be getting funky flare on shorter cases to tilt the bullet during seating.

Try using shorter resized case to set the flare amount and see if that addresses tilted bullets.

BTW, I use Lee factory bullet seating stem for 9mm and can produce around .002"-.003" OAL variance with even case neck bulging with mixed range brass (.001" with pre-resized mixed range brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806

 

[mdi]

I believe starter52's comment meant he has much the same experience as I do; never needed to check runout in a handgun cartridge, not ignorance of the term. For about 30 years I used a plain old stock Lee flaring tool. Large bullets small bullets (.224" to .452"), cast, plated, jacketed. I found whenever a bullet was seated a bullet crooked, it was my fault, but I never had to measure runout on any handgun round I reloaded. If a wobbly cartridge chambers it will be safe to shoot, but accuracy?

For some reloading I did with my Lee Loaders I made flaring tools with a narrower taper which aided searing with the Lee Loader, especially with cast bullets.

 

[fxvr5]

Probably the only concern if bullets are not seated straight is whether the loaded rounds will fit in the chamber.

Crooked seated bullets do not appear to affect accuracy in the typical handgun, as tested in this article;

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

 

[LiveLife]

Crooked seated bullets do not appear to affect accuracy in the typical handgun, as tested in this article;

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

Thanks for posting the article.

Interesting article findings ... So reloaders have been "wasting" money on Lyman M and Redding Competition dies based on 75 round group comparison?

Group Sizes (Inches):​

• Straight: 2.51 - 1.92 - 2.17 - 1.64 - 2.41 = 2.51" - 75 shot
• Crooked: 1.84 - 1.67 - 2.22 - 1.78 - 2.48 = 2.55" - 75 shot
• Lyman M: 1.63 - 1.82 - 2.16 - 2.51 - 2.63 = 2.76" - 75 shot
• Redding: 2.02 - 2.19 - 1.07 - 3.02 - 1.98 = 3.10" - 75 shot

And this is why jmorris and Bart B and other long-range match shooters harp on 5 shot groups being subset of 10 shot groups and so on. 75 round composite tells the true story behind accuracy and group size.

If we are basing our accuracy notion on few 5/10 shot groups out of these 75 round composite, our accuracy notion may not be true reflection. That's why I am continuing my 22LR accuracy journey now over 11,000 rounds so we can composite all the 10 round groups to determine the "totality" of accuracy picture instead of occasional small 5 shot groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ud-why-dud-thread.893062/page-2#post-12273202

 

[Mark_Mark]

Thanks for posting the article.

Interesting article findings ... So reloaders have been "wasting" money on Redding Competition and Lyman M dies based on 75 round accuracy comparison?

View attachment 1073343

Looks like crooked ammo is the secret to small groups!

Lee crooked dies, here I come

 

[LiveLife]

Lee crooked dies, here I come

 

[LiveLife]

Looks like crooked ammo is the secret to small groups!

Not so fast ... Didn't you notice smaller 75 round composite group size with "Straight" bullet?

• Straight: ... 2.51" - 75 shot
• Crooked: ... 2.55" - 75 shot

So straight seated bullets for the win!

Now about Lyman M and Redding Competition die composite group sizes ...

 

[LiveLife]

Crooked seated bullets do not appear to affect accuracy in the typical handgun, as tested in this article;

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/

Now about Lyman M and Redding Competition die composite group sizes ...

Closing comments from the linked article may shed light on other reloading variables overshadowing tilted seated bullet/neck tension? < I may do myth busting on this finding >

"... I certainly did not expect these results. I expected the Lyman and Redding dies to produce tighter groups than the hand placed or crooked bullets. Instead, they produced the largest 75-shot groups. Life is full of surprises.

One could argue this comparison is, itself, a statistical anomaly ... previous data with the Rock Island Armory barrel and Glock didn’t show the crooked seated bullets were obviously less accurate.

There were 75 chances for the crooked seated bullets to produce fliers. They didn’t, and the other categories of ammunition each had 75 chances to prove they were more consistently accurate. That didn’t happen either.

... The fact crooked bullets were as accurate (or more accurate) than aligned bullets in this test, suggests alignment isn’t that important in every circumstance."​

 

[Mark_Mark]

Not so fast ... Didn't you notice smaller 75 round composite group size with "Straight" bullet?

​

So straight seated bullets for the win!

Now about Lyman M and Redding Competition die composite group sizes ...

hummmm…. mmmmm . mmmmm .04

 

[LiveLife]

hummmm…. mmmmm . mmmmm .04

Stay tuned

< I may do myth busting on this finding >

 

[FROGO207]

Well handgun bullets tend to be larger around and the tips more blunt. The dynamics of them going through the air for shorter distances versus a smaller longer, pointed bullet over a greater distance will show that the air has less of an impact.They are not expected to be as accurate at longer ranges.
No I do not measure my handgun rounds for being concentric. That would take more time for the diminishing returns it would help with.

 

[Rule3]

Yet another of Brad Millers articles that looks good but round and round says very little.

"I’m not saying bullet alignment does not affect accuracy. I’m sure it does. That said, it did not make a difference with this ammunition in this gun at this distance. If alignment had a chronic negative affect on accuracy, one would expect it to show up with some regularity. The fact crooked bullets were as accurate (or more accurate) than aligned bullets in this test, suggests alignment isn’t that important in every circumstance."

 

[bullseye308]

Well those results were unexpected given current thoughts on the matter. I was surprised at the Glock results, half shot well then half shot worse. Like the author mentioned, it drives you nuts.

I have on 2 occasions fired crooked bullets only because they chambered and they seemed to be as accurate as any others, but I didn’t really give it any thought at the time, nor did I pursue it further.

 

[twarr1]

Get the Lyman M dies or the NOE plugs that @Mark_Mark mentioned and - no more crooked bullets.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011246697?pid=600695