Myth busting 22LR "No dud/Why dud" thread

[Swampman]

@LiveLife: (I am referring here to my post #7)
I couldn't detect any signs of flaked off priming compound in the powder when I inspected it. The powder was very small light grey flakes, almost silvery looking. Any green chunks of loose priming compound would've stuck out like a sore thumb.

The ammo would have been purchased at any one of several area Wal-Marts, but I definitely didn't get it second hand, so my assumption is that the ammo was fresh, new production when purchased.

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim...

10.4x38R (.41 Swiss rimfire) Swiss Vetterli bolt face.


Stripped Vetterli bolt. The piece at bottom left is the split firing pin(s?) powered by a single, central striker.


As Carl N. Brown pointed out, the Henry rifle from 1860 also had a double pointed firing pin, as did the original 1866 Winchester.

I'm gonna say that since the split firing pin was used in multiple very successful designs, it's obviously not a terrible idea, but I still prefer to have my rimfire ammo properly primed.

Since I mostly switched to Aguila (and sometimes CCI) for plinking .22's, I've had close to zero duds.

If someone had told me 50 years ago that I'd someday switch to Mexican made ammo due to its superior reliability over Winchester & Remington, I would have laughed in their face.

 

[Archie]

About fifteen years ago, I shot in a Wednesday night 'league' shooting old fashioned bulleye shooting. Normally one match was limited to .22 long rifle. I shot a rather modified (for target work) Ruger Mark I, and then S&W model 41.
Among other ammunition I tried the then current Federal and Remington target loads. Both loads shot very well in terms of group size, but each had about a 10% dud rate. Certain death to timed or rapid fire. That in both pistols.
However, I found CCI Standard Velocity type and CCI Green Tag type to shoot as well as the aforementioned, but without duds (or so minor an amount I have forgotten). That also in both pistols.
I was convinced at the time - and still am - the results were due to sloppy workmanship in those two factories. Are they still bad? I do not know. I don't shoot bullseye anymore (political decisions closed the range) and I avoid those brands of ammunition.

 

[Riomouse911]

OK, I shot my .22 LR Ruger Mk IV, Glock 44 and Rossi 62A Rifle today, along with the Ruger American Rimfire .22 WMR.

The Rossi was flawless, everything fired and ejected normally.

The Mk IV had three fail to eject with Norma Tac-22 rounds. I think this may be magazine related as two happened from the same 10 round Mag and the other I think was the same one a Mag or two later.

One stuck case in the RAR .22 WMR; round was Win 45 gr Dynapoint. It took a cleaning rod section dropped down the barrel to dislodge. I didn’t see anything out of the ordinary, I have no idea why this case stuck so hard.

The Glock had one fail to clear the ejection port with a CCI Blazer 40 gr LRN and one FTF with Aguila 36 gr HP.

I brought the unfired round home, yanked the bullet and dumped the powder.



In this case the priming looks fine. The firing pin indentation looks shallow, I don’t think it was seated all the way, as all the other fired cases had much better pin strikes.



If I have another FTF in a couple of weeks when I get to shoot again I’ll check that one, too.

Stay safe.

 

[FROGO207]

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim, or wider, to strike a larger area of the rim. Especially with a solid strike that doesn’t fire on the first attempt, then a restrike elsewhere on the rim fires perfectly.

This past Friday I put a few hundred of each load through the S&W Model 18 4”and Dan Wesson 6” .22 LR’s using Armscor 36 gr hp, Blazer 40 gr lead, Aguila subsonic 40 gr lead and Norma Tac-22 40 gr lead.

I had one FTF with the Armscor rounds in the Model 18. The case had a good indentation where the pin hit it so I’ll assume it was incomplete priming around the rim, as that round fired when I rotated the cartridge 45 degrees in the chamber and restruck it.

The .22 magnum Model 48 4” also came out and I fired fifty each of the Armscor 40 gr JHP, the Win 40 gr JHP and Win Dynapoint 45 gr plated bullet rounds. A smaller sample, but all cartridges fired on the first pull.

View attachment 1016764

This gun packs a loud report and a visible fireball with almost zero recoil. Once I get the sights dialed in it’ll make a dandy UTV gun for the trails.

Stay safe.

Well I have fired the guestimate of 8K rounds of .22 MAG, of all types, Armscore, Federal, several types of CCI, Remington, WIN, Win Dynapoints, and others I forget. My memory is that I never had a failure of a .22 MAG round in the approximately 12 different firearms I own. Interesting that 22 MAG all seem to fire at least. I do have half a dozen .22 MAG rounds with a single strike on them that did not go off. All from the ground at the same pit on the same day. I'll find them and see what they have for problems then report back. I suspect a firearm problem though.

ETA: Oops didn't mean to start a thread drift here.

 

[GONRA]

GONRA's pretty sure irksome rimfire priming issues could be solved if they
SPUN THE CARTRIDGE CASE containing the wet priming mix
so it all got into the rim. (Check olde rimfire ammo for
"priming centrifuge grab marks" on the cartridge case head.)

These days a SPINNING TUNGSTEN CARBIDE grooved arbor is stuck
into the STATIONARY case to (hopefully) spin wet mix into the rim.

Can't really miss with FIRST (olde, expensive) method, but
SECOND (faster production, faith based, cheeper) just is NOT 100%.....

 

[Jim Watson]

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim,

I believe when gun manufacturers design their hammer fired guns, use of two firing pins/strikers is likely not considered as they would expect ammunition manufacturers to properly prime rounds.

I believe the original 1860s Henry rifle had a double pointed firing pin that struck opposite sides of the cartridge rim.

If you want something more modern and of the caliber of interest, Freedom Arms .22s have double point firing pins.


I wonder what a Kricotronic would do if its electrode touched a spot without priming. Would the zap conduct to where there was some?

 

[LiveLife]

Repost from another thread on additional factor of powder charge thrown/tossed forward when chambered in semi-auto with priming compound missing from case base - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/22-automatch-ftf-s.898123/#post-12130040

The outer edge of a rimfire case, is where the priming compound resides.

Yes but it does not reside on the rim itself, which is often struck by the firing pin.

I believe 22LR cases are primed by "flowing/spinning" priming compound to the entire bottom of case (particularly the rim) and priming compound is detonated by compressive impact force between brass rim when struck by firing pin.

So even if priming compound is at the rim, if most of priming compound from base of case has moved away and mixed in with the powder, there may not be enough priming compound left to ignite the powder charge as in particular with semi-autos, when round is chambered, powder charge is thrown/tossed forward possibly leaving an air gap and without priming compound at the base to jump past the air gap to ignite the powder granules, we may get a "fizz" instead of bang.​

 

[AzShooter1]

I just finished my first Bucket Of Bullets and am pleased to say I had no failure to fires in the entire bucket.

Aguila 40 grain SE gave me lots of problems from low report to having 2 cases shoot out of battery and the bases exploded.

 

[lg&m]

"Thunderduds"? Not been my experience. Maybe I'm lucky buy my rimfires like em.

 

[troy fairweather]

I think 22 rimfire guns should have dual firing pins, but it would mean a heavier spring so on some guns that may not work to well. Some 22s have a very small strike, some so small I'm not to confident in. But again the larger the surface the heavier the spring needs to be.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

My benchrest gun has the firing pin on the bottom. The story is it provides better ignition due to the powder laying on the bottom side of the case. I doubt if I have one dud per 5k rounds...I'd guess the fact that ammo I shoot out of the gun isn't bulk or budget stuff has more to do with it than the firing pin location, though.

 

[230RN]

1. Firearm wear
2. Firearm maintenance

Main things I've found:

Dirty firing pin, channel, or striking mechanism, dented receiver from dry firing, firing shorts and then switching to Longs or Long rifles without swabbing the crud from the shorts out of the chamber.

Age, depending on storage conditions, does not seem to be a consistent reason for failure to fire. In this regard, be aware that .22 rimfires are not well sealed, by the nature of their manufacture. In fact, with many/most of them, you can rotate the bullet in the case with one's bare fingers, no tools required.

 

[Jim Watson]

The LR is better sealed than you might expect.
Of all the ammo salvaged out of my totaled house after the Incident, soaked by fire hose water and rain in the burned out roof that nobody thought worth throwing a tarpaulin over, the .22s were quite usable, not as reliable as the USGI .45 ACP but better than a lot of commercial ammo and centerfire reloads that I had to pull to reclaim bullets and brass.

 

[Autodidactic]

1. Ammunition brand - Inconclusive

I grew up shooting a Ruger 10/22 standard model and like many other members, shot A LOT of rounds and basis of how reliable 22LR ammunition performed was formed around shooting 10/22. During the recent 20,000+ round testing, several well used 10/22s were shot along with new Take Down model.

What I noticed was some ammunition that wasn't reliable in the well used 10/22 were more reliable in the new Take Down model which prompted buying new 10/22 Collector #3 model and T/CR22.

And during the 3000 round testing of new 10/22, only misfire/duds I experienced came from Winchester M22. Even the infamous "Thunderduds" went bang, every round. This was a surprise as I have experienced misfires/duds with various bulk 22LR over the decades and others mirrored my experience. So did I get lucky during my testing of around 20 brands/weights or have we been blaming the misfires/duds to ammunition?

And I post "inconclusive" because my sampling of ammunition was limited to lot #s of brands purchased within a year of my testing.

Actually, my first .22 was a 10/22 and far more bulk ammo types (such as Aguila Super Extra) were reliable out of my 10/22. However, later I ran the same types out of other .22’s especially handguns only to find they weren’t as reliable. For example, the same Aguila Super Extra is very unreliable out of a Ruger Mark Iv.

 

[kcofohio]

I think 22 rimfire guns should have dual firing pins, but it would mean a heavier spring so on some guns that may not work to well. Some 22s have a very small strike, some so small I'm not to confident in. But again the larger the surface the heavier the spring needs to be.

The Beretta Neos is a striker fired. For an inexpensive gun it has a good trigger. I wonder how much difference it would be with a stronger striker spring?

 

[gifbohane]

I'm sure that most readers are already aware of this, but NEVER USE A KINETIC BULLET PULLER ON RIMFIRE AMMUNITION!

The best (easiest/cheapest/safest) method I've found is to use a .22 collet type puller. Since I don't have a shellholder designed for .22 rimfire, I use a Lee shellholder made for large primer cases (the Lee hole is larger than those in my RCBS shellholders) and stick the whole cartridge through the priming hole. The bullet and case will go through, but the rim is too large and will hold the case in place while the bullet is pulled.
.

I am finding a lot of unfired 22 at the range left laying around. Presumably all misfires. Was going to try to salvage them. Thanks for notice.

 

[LiveLife]

Aguila 40 grain SE gave me lots of problems from low report to having 2 cases shoot out of battery and the bases exploded.

Aguila Super Extra were reliable out of my 10/22. However ... very unreliable out of a Ruger Mark Iv.

There are reasons why I do "myth busting" threads ... particularly when there persists conflicting notions from differing THR member experiences.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...h+busting&o=date&c[node]=15&c[user][0]=113916​

The reason why I did this "Myth busting No dud/Why dud" for 22LR was after shooting around 30,000 rounds in recent years out of various older 10/22s and new Take Down model (Along with ARs with CMMG conversion bolts, GSG 1911 and Advantage Arms Glock 22 slide kit), I saw varying levels of feeding, chambering and primer ignition with same ammunition.

What did not work in older 10/22s worked fine in new Take Down model with new magazines.

And that motivated me to buy new 10/22 and T/CR22 along with over 20 brands/weights/lots of new ammunition to see how reliable they were shot out of new rifles in regards to 22LR primer ignition, particularly cheapest loose bulk packs often cursed by many to be "unreliable".

• 5000 round 10/22 break-in thread
• 2000 round T/CR22 break-in thread
• 4000 round (so far) 10/22 and T/CR22 accurizing thread

What I found during the first 1000 rounds was 20+ brands/weights/lots went bang 100% until carbon/fouling build up required cleaning and they were 100% reliable again. So the myth of 22LR duds was BUSTED. (Only exception was Winchester M22 that had several duds out of each loose bulk box consistently and this may not be the case in newer lots)

So during my limited sampling of nearly 10,000 rounds tested, I concluded various 22LR ammunition must have priming compound at the rim when they left the factory but "something" caused the priming compound to move away from the rim to make them less reliable.

And for this thread, we discussed the following factors:

1. Ammunition brand
2. Ammunition age
3. Ammunition storage
4. Firearm
5. Firearm wear
6. Firearm maintenance
7. Others - Lack of priming compound on rim (priming compound moving away from rim), User modifications, etc.

So when members post particular brand "X" ammunition sucks because of duds, I am inclined to ask what above factors could be causing the duds because they were 100% reliable in two new rifles (10/22 and T/CR22):

• If ammunition in question is loose bulk packed, perhaps rough shipping condition during transport shook the loose rounds enough to vibrate the priming compound away from the rim.
• If ammunition in question is boxed/loose bulk packed but works in other firearm(s), perhaps firearm needs to be cleaned and/or worn parts replaced.
• If ammunition in question is consistently unreliable in all firearms due to manufacturing mishap, then manufacturer should be contacted for replacement as we do have occasional ammunition recalls by various manufacturers.

So just because a particular lot of Winchester M22 consistently caused several duds in all of my firearms out of each box, I certainly don't expect that to be the case two years later and would try a new lot of M22 to test. Why didn't I contact Winchester for replacement? M22 produced "hottest" felt recoil (40 gr "black" RN at 1255 fps) out of GSG 1911 and AA G22 for my fast point shooting drills and several duds gave me stoppage drill opportunities and this was "acceptable for me". Having several duds out of each 1000 round box may not be acceptable to some and they could certainly contact Winchester.

 

[CapnMac]

It is interesting that, given we have been using rimfire ammo for around a century and a half that there have been so few variations in the number of strikers.

What that suggests--to me--is that at least somebody tried four or five or three strikers, and there was a good reason that never caught on. And, that will have spanned both the full range of variability in rim priming compounds, and the complexity of machining multiple pins.

Reliability of ammo is a funny thing. If you are only killing cans for fun, less-reliable ammo is a mere annoyance. If you were poor enough to buy ammo one round at a time, and each shot was the measure of eating or not eating that day, then it gets a bit more crucial.

I'm left with more questions than answers--an all too common bugabear of day-to-day life.

 

[Autodidactic]

There are reasons why I do "myth busting" threads ... particularly when there persists conflicting notions from differing THR member experiences.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...h+busting&o=date&c[node]=15&c[user][0]=113916​

The reason why I did this "Myth busting No dud/Why dud" for 22LR was after shooting around 30,000 rounds in recent years out of various older 10/22s and new Take Down model (Along with ARs with CMMG conversion bolts, GSG 1911 and Advantage Arms Glock 22 slide kit), I saw varying levels of feeding, chambering and primer ignition with same ammunition.

What did not work in older 10/22s worked fine in new Take Down model with new magazines.

And that motivated me to buy new 10/22 and T/CR22 along with over 20 brands/weights/lots of new ammunition to see how reliable they were shot out of new rifles in regards to 22LR primer ignition, particularly cheapest loose bulk packs often cursed by many to be "unreliable".

• 5000 round 10/22 break-in thread
• 2000 round T/CR22 break-in thread
• 4000 round (so far) 10/22 and T/CR22 accurizing thread

What I found during the first 1000 rounds was 20+ brands/weights/lots went bang 100% until carbon/fouling build up required cleaning and they were 100% reliable again. So the myth of 22LR duds was BUSTED. (Only exception was Winchester M22 that had several duds out of each loose bulk box consistently and this may not be the case in newer lots)

So during my limited sampling of nearly 10,000 rounds tested, I concluded various 22LR ammunition must have priming compound at the rim when they left the factory but "something" caused the priming compound to move away from the rim to make them less reliable.

And for this thread, we discussed the following factors:

1. Ammunition brand
2. Ammunition age
3. Ammunition storage
4. Firearm
5. Firearm wear
6. Firearm maintenance
7. Others - Lack of priming compound on rim (priming compound moving away from rim), User modifications, etc.

So when members post particular brand "X" ammunition sucks because of duds, I am inclined to ask what above factors could be causing the duds because they were 100% reliable in two new rifles (10/22 and T/CR22):

• If ammunition in question is loose bulk packed, perhaps rough shipping condition during transport shook the loose rounds enough to vibrate the priming compound away from the rim.
• If ammunition in question is boxed/loose bulk packed but works in other firearm(s), perhaps firearm needs to be cleaned and/or worn parts replaced.
• If ammunition in question is consistently unreliable in all firearms due to manufacturing mishap, then manufacturer should be contacted for replacement as we do have occasional ammunition recalls by various manufacturers.

So just because a particular lot of Winchester M22 consistently caused several duds in all of my firearms out of each box, I certainly don't expect that to be the case two years later and would try a new lot of M22 to test. Why didn't I contact Winchester for replacement? M22 produced "hottest" felt recoil (40 gr "black" RN at 1255 fps) out of GSG 1911 and AA G22 for my fast point shooting drills and several duds gave me stoppage drill opportunities and this was "acceptable for me". Having several duds out of each 1000 round box may not be acceptable to some and they could certainly contact Winchester.

But what I'm saying is that a lot of these bulk rounds will work fine in my newish 10/22 (2020), but not in a new Ruger Mark IV. Consistently. That's true for a number of other firearms. It is not based on cleaning. My Ruger Mark IV, clean, will fire CCI mini mags 100 rounds without a single failure. It will not do so with many different bulk, cheaper rounds. The difference is stark. I've tested this after cleaning multiple times. I think I experienced the same thing with a TX22, Browning Buckmark, and S&W Victory. Perhaps it's because .22 LR is indeed more reliable out of a rifle. I don't know.

 

[LiveLife]

a lot of these bulk rounds will work fine in my newish 10/22 (2020), but not in a new Ruger Mark IV. Consistently.

... Perhaps it's because .22 LR is indeed more reliable out of a rifle.

Perhaps.

 

[Mike OTDP]

I’ve always wondered why all rimfire firing pins weren’t either split-tip, to strike two areas on the rim, or wider, to strike a larger area of the rim.

Anschutz rimfire rifles use a double firing pin, for precisely that reason. Of course, people shooting an Anschutz tend not to feed it plinker-grade ammo.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Anschutz rimfire rifles use a double firing pin, for precisely that reason. Of course, people shooting an Anschutz tend not to feed it plinker-grade ammo.

What model of Anschutz rifles have a double pin?

 

[I6turbo]

And during the 3000 round testing of new 10/22, only misfire/duds I experienced came from Winchester M22. Even the infamous "Thunderduds" went bang, every round. This was a surprise as I have experienced misfires/duds with various bulk 22LR over the decades and others mirrored my experience. So did I get lucky during my testing of around 20 brands/weights or have we been blaming the misfires/duds to ammunition?

I've owned 2,000 rounds of M-22 in my life. I sold a thousand rounds and gave away most of the rest. The lots that I had (two different lots) were terribly prone to gunking up an action due to the black lead/wax/whatever it is that is so sloppily applied to the bullet. You can probably see it in the photo below -- can see how some of that stuff is spread down lower than the case neck on most of the rounds. You can scrape it off with your fingernail, looks like a thin coating of waxy lead. If you search online you'll probably find others who have noticed poor performance and barrel leading with it. I don't know if it was just some lots, or what.


I've shot probably 10 different makes and models of 22 LR ammo over the past 10 years, ranging from bulk stuff to mid-grade target ammo like SK Standard Plus and Pistol Match. I'd bet I've not had any more than one FTF for every thousand rounds. During this period I've kept my guns pretty clean.

Several years ago I had two guns that were giving me more frequent FTFs. One was an AMT Lightning pistol (essentially identical to a Ruger Mk II Target), which needed a new hammer spring, and since then hasn't had any FTFs that I can recall. The other was my old 1966 model 10/22 that literally hadn't had a thorough action cleaning in approximately 25 years (but also didn't have a huge number of rounds through it). FTFs ceased after I gave it a good cleaning.

I'm a believer that a dirty gun, weak hammer spring, or poorly-shaped firing pin tip are responsible for 95+% of rimfire FTFs.

 

[DMW1116]

For all the stories about 22 not going bang, I’ve had maybe 3 that didn’t fire when struck. One was an Aguila red box Super Extra. One was a Winchester M22 and the last I don’t remember. That was 1/500 for the M22 and 1/1000 or so for the Aguila. I wish I’d bought that second box of 500 M22. That stuff shot my highest score at 25 yard timed fire bullseye. Haven’t seen any since.

 

[MedWheeler]

I can speak for three misfires in my shooting lifetime. I've shot perhaps between 25 and 30 thousand .22 rimfire rounds, probably 2/3 of which was CCI MiniMags, over the years, and maybe between 12 and 17 thousand centerfire rounds of various brands and handgun calibers.

My first misfire was with a commercially-reloaded round of .38 Special 158-grain SWC ammo issued to me by my employer. The gun was a Charter Arms Undercover revolver that, at that time, had seen perhaps 100 rounds through it. It was made early in 1987. The round fired the second time the hammer was dropped on it. Another round from that same box had a split case that was spotted before loading it. The ammo had been issued to me in 1988, but this was in around 2003, so it was fifteen years old. It had always been stored in proper conditions.

The second was with a .380ACP round, probably a Remington-UMC one, in a Bersa Thunder. The gun had seen maybe 150 rounds in my hands, and an unknown number before becoming mine. That round also fired the second time the hammer was dropped on it. The ammo was less than a year old at the time.

The third was a round of Remington Golden Bullet (from a fifty-round sleeve box) in .22LR, and the gun was a new Heritage Rough Rider. The gun had seen 14 rounds through it; the failed round was the third in its third loadup. Multiple strikes failed to set it off and the round was discarded. All other rounds from that box fired in that gun that day. I don't recall if I've fired that HRR (my second) since then. The ammo was less than a year old at the time.