Mark_Mark
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if crooked ammo was more accurate, they should make factory crooked ammo
Is there a concern about runout on pistol loads?
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GeoDudeFlorida
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If it plunks, I shoot it.
Rifle is a different story but with the same ending - "...and they all lived happily ever-after."
GeoDudeFlorida
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They do, for shooting around corners.
What? you mean you don't already have a case? Shame on you!
(sarcasm. some people get it - some people use AmmoSeek to find around-the-corner-shooting-ammo)
AJC1
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But why give up those accuracy gains posted in the article....
Several years back I purchased the Lyman M die. Not sure of the problem I was having at the time or if there was a problem at all. It was in my reloading tool stash...pushed to the back. I think I bought it at a time when I was into "reloading tool acquisition". Maybe I shied away from it because I didn't want to add another step in the reload process. But looks like a good time to bring it out. I'll run a number of my primed ready to load brass and see if this helps in the seating process. I'll report back after I load up some "Lymanized" brass. I do appreciate the comments!
RealGun
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A cartridge gauge will catch significant runout, and if minor in straight wall pistol rounds, a Lee FCD will fix it.
twarr1
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The M die has 3 steps. For jacketed bullets the die is adjusted to just use the 2nd step, giving a good, square bullet entry. The 3rd step is to slightly flare the case mouth for lead bullets and isn’t used for jacketed.
I look at this thread in a different light. I do know a person, who by the way is a very good pistol shooter, that does occasionally trims his pistol brass. He says different 9mm mfr. is not always exactly the same. In addition, shooting the same cartridges over and over will create a minute case expansion, but since cases are head space on the mouth, it's not a big deal. Still he does trim his brass once in a while. Now if we have wobbly bullets, it seems the cause could be neck tension. I guess I will have to check cases against some once fired and trim a few and go to the range. "Sorry honey I can't go shopping with you, I got this real important job tomorrow and the "guys" are counting on me to solve a big problem at the range." Maybe a faster way to start is to check several 1,000 range pick-ups I have and look for case stretch. first and then trim and load some up. Talk to t.h.r. soon.
Last night I loaded 50 "Lymanized" cases and everybody behaved. Of course I paid attention on my end to make sure the 135 FMJ's were going in straight. I crimp with the Lee FCD but I make sure it's a light crimp. Took my Ruger ec9s barrel and did the plunk test which yielded no surprises.
As far as me shooting crooked bullets, I'm a Republican and won't switch!
As far as me shooting crooked bullets, I'm a Republican and won't switch!
lordpaxman
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I make sure I shoot crooked bullets at close targets, that way it doesn’t matter. I’ve never checked runout on pistol rounds, and won’t be starting that anytime soon. I’ve been using the DAA M style expanders for powder throws and they work pretty well for my reloads.
RashQuestion
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+1, 2, and 3!!! LiveLife & Walkalong have it right in my opinion!
When you inspect your rounds after loading if they don't look right they probably aren't. They may shoot but for me, my QC is to inspect each case before loading. With more QC for each round's "primer seating", "set back check" and "plunk" after loading!!!
Those steps work for me and I can be confident if I give some of my hand loads to my boys, they will be safe for them to use as well as anyone near them at the range.
Safety like tightening up your shot groups takes practice, practice and more practice! The same is needed to provide the QC we all strive to reach!!!
Well, the weather isn't cooperating for shooting, but I checked out some 100 9mm cases and found variations going from.739 through .751. Hornady Powder manual says max is .754 and they recommend trim size to .749. I have mostly Blaser and Remington empties. Remington had the widest variety from to .739 to .751. Blaser(made by CCI) was .742 to .748 with most being at .746 I also checked new unfired factory loads, Remington Golden Saber, self-defense bonded HPs (2016), which also varied from .740 to .747. So I took 11 empty cases and trimmed them to .745 and will shoot for sure on Thursday. I'm mostly interested in seeing if they shoot any better than my reg. practice rounds. I loaded them with Custom Hornady Taper dies using Win SPP, 124 grn. MBC target RN powder coat, 3.8 grains of Bullseye and they will go through my full size XDM. And I did do a plunk test on them.
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I will certainly disagree with your understanding of bullet POI. I cannot remember the NRA publication, but they did a rifle test myth busting "brush busting bullets." The author took 1 sq. foot plywood cage and drilled and inserted 3/8" dowels 12 rows and 12 deep in such a way that a bullet could not pass through without hitting at least one dowel. He then set this contraption at several distances between the rifle and the target spanning 100 yards. His conclusion was the closer the deflection towards the target, the less deviation at POI. His closest defection was only a few yards from the target, the greatest was a few yards in front of the muzzle.
That being said, I wonder what effect this might have on a crooked pistol bullet, being the deflection, is shot at a 25 or 50 yard target? You can also see this effect by watching a Aaron Rogers, MVP Green Bay Packers throwing a pass and having someone tip the ball in the process to a close receiver vs. throwing a "Hail Mary" down the field . Real close and it rarely makes a difference. Down the field, and with the slightest variation the ball misses it mark completely.
fxvr5
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The article measures group size.
No clue why you're talking about whatever it is you're talking about.
As fxvr5 stated previously, according to the article inaccurate bullets don't make much difference. And I am stating I think that assumption is wrong.
I recreated that experiment at my range this a.m. and found a very interesting variation.
I found the accurate bullets did in fact shoot a much tighter group initially but as time went on and I only used my pistol stacked on a pile of sand bags and I got tired of trying to steady the gun for over 40 rounds doing a "round robin". Both groups opened up to the point where it was hard to tell which of the 2 groups were better.
Now my inaccurate bullets were just ones I randomly loaded a month ago and (there could be some very good loads with in that group) with varying the shell cases sizes from range pick-ups. The accurate ones were trimmed to .745 and loaded to 1.125 OAL.
And I admit, a hot barrel and maybe the wrong seating depth could make a big difference in accuracy along the way in either the article or my test, however as I stated originally, I think proper run-out sizing and neck tension on the bullet does make a difference in accuracy, even with pistols.
I recreated that experiment at my range this a.m. and found a very interesting variation.
I found the accurate bullets did in fact shoot a much tighter group initially but as time went on and I only used my pistol stacked on a pile of sand bags and I got tired of trying to steady the gun for over 40 rounds doing a "round robin". Both groups opened up to the point where it was hard to tell which of the 2 groups were better.
Now my inaccurate bullets were just ones I randomly loaded a month ago and (there could be some very good loads with in that group) with varying the shell cases sizes from range pick-ups. The accurate ones were trimmed to .745 and loaded to 1.125 OAL.
And I admit, a hot barrel and maybe the wrong seating depth could make a big difference in accuracy along the way in either the article or my test, however as I stated originally, I think proper run-out sizing and neck tension on the bullet does make a difference in accuracy, even with pistols.
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fxvr5
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I said nothing about inaccurate bullets. Neither did the article. The article is about crooked seated bullets.
No you didn't. You didn't use a Ransom Rest. And you tell us nothing about your ammo - bullet, powder, whatever - or gun.
Your results support the results of the article: You can't tell the difference between your two types of ammo.
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If you are using Lee seating dies, there is a good chance you will have runout. Don't flame me. I have several Lee products and some, I would never do without. But, their seating dies suk. I bought Hornady seating dies and problem solved. Yes, you can make the Lee dies work, but it's too much work. I also recommend either a M-Die or NOE expander. They help to start out straight.
LiveLife
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Have you read this comparison done by American Handgunner?
Findings from the article may indicate reduction of neck tension to overshadow benefit of "straight seated" bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-runout-on-pistol-loads.904700/#post-12274078
"25 yard group sizes from Ransom Rest:
- Straight: 2.51 - 1.92 - 2.17 - 1.64 - 2.41 = 2.51" - 75 shot
- Crooked: 1.84 - 1.67 - 2.22 - 1.78 - 2.48 = 2.55" - 75 shot
- Lyman M: 1.63 - 1.82 - 2.16 - 2.51 - 2.63 = 2.76" - 75 shot
- Redding: 2.02 - 2.19 - 1.07 - 3.02 - 1.98 = 3.10" - 75 shot"
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AJC1
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I'm curious if lead bullets will act differently. I don't believe the have the ability to self align or correct the way jacketed do....
# 2 comment "I loaded them with Custom Hornady Taper dies using Win SPP, 124 grn. MBC target RN powder coat, 3.8 grains of Bullseye and they will go through my full size XDM. And I did do a plunk test on them."
I question the results shown in the article. At least I have an excuse for groups going from good to bad. It is strange that accurate bullets start out bad and then get better and go bad again and good and bad. (Why didn't my groups do that?) And crooked bullets do just the opposite; they start good and eventually go bad and then get good again. IF You want to believe that horse puckey, go ahead.
Secondly, the article used 3 different hand guns/ or combination of parts. It would be nice to have results from each gun.
Third, why 10 fouling shots, we are testing crooked bullets not fouled barrels.
Fourth, show us each group on paper.
Fifth, the article said it was shooting HAP bullets, but the photo showed HPs. OOPS.
Sixth, the article did not show how the Random Rest was set up. One can screw those up too.
So basically it was a nice article, not scientific, but a nice article from a gun nut.
I will go back and shoot my experiment in the future. I will check my cartridges on a concentricity gauge for straight and crooked.
I will shoot two different guns, my 9mm XDM(match barrel) and a pristine 586, .357 , 6 inch barrel with .38 Special (unless you want .357 Mag) cartridges with HPs, which hopefully will eliminate firearm and bullet related variations. YOU SHOULD TRY THE SAME.
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I hit this problem with a good dose of money. I bought a Redding sleeve type seating die and a M expander. Gave up the through the die powder drops. The result is that my 9 mm rounds look good and seem straight now. Maybe could have fixed it with a seating stem and better technique. But I just love the way that sleeve seating feels.
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