Is there a transition period to get fast with RMR type sight on pistol

[Sheepdog1968]

ecently at local gun store they had a customized Glock with the trijicon RMR installed. I have been curious about these sights so I played with it for a while. I found it to be slower to pick up the red dot than the front sight. I hadn't had that issue with rifles and was a little surprised to have an issue on a pistol.

Does it get quicker, easier on a pistol? If so, how long did it take you? I've taken lots of pistol classes over the years with iron sights (XS sights to be precise) so I'm used to bring a pistol into action quickly. Many thanks.

PS I'm not looking to change. Mostly curious about those of you who have changed and what the transition was like.

 

[Sam1911]

Yeah. A few practice sessions will have you up to speed, if that's what you're concentrating on shooting. It is different and it does take getting used to. But it's hard to argue with how fast you can go with one of those, if you make the commitment to it.

 

[wally]

It takes a while because up to now you have trained to "focus on the front sight" but with the red dots you need to focus on the target and look through the dot to put it on target. No precise alignment is required, the bullet should hit on the target where the dot is if its sighted in correctly.


That is why they rule in CQB -- I don't care who your are its damn hard to be focusing on the front sight instead of the threat when the bullets might be flying both ways!

 

[9mmepiphany]

The reason it seems slower is twofold:

1. You are bring the gun higher than needed. The dot of the RMR is higher, in relation to your hand, so you will naturally have the gun too high when you first bring it to eye level.

2. You're looking for the dot to "place on" the target. You should be looking through the "window," at the target, and imposing the dot onto it

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Thanks for the insight. I'm guilty on all counts. I'm not ready yet to buy one but am keeping an eye on them. A good friend of mine has a red dot on his rifle and shotgun and they seem handy on those. I can see why folks are putting them on handguns.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The reason the issue doesn't arise with longguns is because they index on your shoulder as you're mounting them

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The reason the issue doesn't arise with longguns is because they index on your shoulder as you're mounting them

Thanks. I did notice the red dot was really easy to pick up on the long arm. Wasn't completely sure why there was such a difference.

 

[WC145]

I carried an FNP45 Tactical with a Trijicon RMR02 on duty the last couple of years before retiring. Two things that shorten the learning curve are taller "suppressor" sights that cowitness with the dot and a presentation that brings the gun up and presses it out into your line of sight rather than swinging it up when you draw. The sights give you a reference point so that you're not hunting for the dot, eventually you stop referencing the sights altogether and just see the dot on the target. Proper presentation pushes the gun out into your line of sight so that your not looking for the front sight or the dot, you're putting them between your eyes and the target. That made a difference in my shooting with iron sights as well, now it's how I draw/present all the time.

 

[Walkalong]

You should be looking through the "window," at the target, and imposing the dot onto it

Once I figured this out about a red dot, it was off to the races. Beginners races, because it was me, but hey....

Bottom line is that approach is much faster.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Walk along, I do like the fact that you would be looking at the target. That seems more natural with what we would want to do if in a fight vs lots of training to focus on the front sight. At some point I may get one as a range gun to try it out. For self defense, I don't know. I get a bit uptight on things that need batteries and have electronics. I know they are rugged and have long battery life and have been proven in rifles in combat.

 

[tarosean]

At some point I may get one as a range gun to try it out.

Pretty sure it's going to have to be one of things that you have to commit too. No In between, occasionally, etc..

I routinely see competition shooters loose the dot and have to search for it again. That's people who presumably practice a lot with their equipment.

 

[1KPerDay]

It does take some time but it is very quick after you get used to it. I actually prefer NOT cowitnessing because it keeps the window uncluttered and makes sure you don't focus on the front sight, which is confusing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Does it get quicker,...

And just as a general rule, pretty much any change will require some "re-learning" and therefore some transition period.

 

[Zerodefect]

Use your iron sights for the first shot.

When you get to the red dot, use it, but until then use the irons.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Pretty sure it's going to have to be one of things that you have to commit too. No In between, occasionally, etc..

I routinely see competition shooters loose the dot and have to search for it again. That's people who presumably practice a lot with their equipment.

One way or the other would be a deal breaker. I don't mind trying but if it would be that different than using irons, I'd likely stay with irons. I will still try it. Maybe I will be able to take a class and rent a pistol with an RMR on it.

 

[Sam1911]

Use your iron sights for the first shot.

When you get to the red dot, use it, but until then use the irons.

I've never heard any competitor who uses an RMR type sight (or a co-witnessed rifle optic, either) say anything like that at all. Transitioning between sighting systems mid-string could only make you slower.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've never heard any competitor who uses an RMR type sight (or a co-witnessed rifle optic, either) say anything like that at all. Transitioning between sighting systems mid-string could only make you slower.

BTDT...because I was stupid and had to prove it to myself

Not just slower, but painfully slower

 

[Zerodefect]

We're having trouble finding the dot on the draw. We don't transition until we have the time and opportunity to.

Our carbines have a cheekweld, so no problem there.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

We're having trouble finding the dot on the draw. We don't transition until we have the time and opportunity to.

Our carbines have a cheekweld, so no problem there.

I'm completely convinced they are quick on a rifle or shotgun. Pistol is sounding less appealing. With my honking big XS white dot on the front on my pistols, it's pretty easy to see.

Actually, the only time I have trouble seeing the XS sight is in my dreams/nightmares; that along with droopy barrels, inability to rack the slide on an empty chamber, and all sorts of incorrect ammo in the magazine, forgetting the combo to the safe, not being able to open the safe, or the safe being empty. I don't like those dreams. When I did empty handed or traditional weapon martial arts more frequently, there was a whole series of nightmare dreams for it as well.

 

[Sam1911]

We're having trouble finding the dot on the draw.

If you've developed a good draw and presentation technique there should be no need to find the dot. As you push the gun out from position 3 to position 4, along your line of sight, it will appear on target well before you're at full extension and pressing the trigger.

If you're using the "swoopy" or "potato digger" draw, as a lot of novices do, the dot will accentuate the slowness and slop of that method, as the dot can't appear until you've brought the gun up and then waited for it to settle back down onto the line of sight. Yet another reason to develop best practices.

 

[ATLDave]

There is no question whatsoever that, once you've adapted to them, red dots are faster on pistols. I am very confident about this based on the fact that in any practical pistol division that allows them (not requires - allows), ALL competent shooters use them. If irons were faster, then none of those competitors would use glass. If it was a wash, or if dots were faster on some targets and irons on others, then there would be a mix. There's not a mix. Every competitor who is permitted (by their division rules) to use them does so.

Many shooters have a period of adjustment when they have to refine their index/presentation after the draw or after breaking grip (movement or reload) to make sure the dot is always in the window. Hunting for the dot is not fast, so the index has to be good enough that this never happens. (This is also true for irons, but the hunt for the front sight is usually shorter.) But once shooters have that down, there's just no question about which is faster. Faster on easy shots, faster on hard shots, faster on long shots, faster on any short shot that's shot with anything other than a pure point/index technique. Faster on transitions because the eyes don't have to shift focus from front sigh on last shot on target X to target Y back to front sight for target Y.

I say all this as someone who does NOT currently shoot a dot on a pistol. I say this from observing a lot of competitive shooters and looking at a lot of match scores. There is no question in my mind on this topic.

 

[Blueduck]

Two completely different things are being discussed. Red dots only for competition, and the newer trend having red dots mounted co-witnessed on pistols purely designed for defensive use. In the second case the general trend is to go for iron sights first and transition to dot if needed for longer or more precise shots.

 

[Sam1911]

Two completely different things are being discussed. Red dots only for competition, and the newer trend having red dots mounted co-witnessed on pistols purely designed for defensive use.

Why are these separate things? I think we're all taking about the RMR type sights mounted into the slide, not the old trash-can sized red-dot scopes used by the past generation. Comp AND carry. What works, works.

In the second case the general trend is to go for iron sights first and transition to dot if needed for longer or more precise shots.

I've not heard of that trend. Where has that been suggested? And with what justification?

 

[Blueduck]

Kelly McCan was the first person taken seriously on the red dot for real carry needs, but most of the recent push has come from Gabe Suarez and OST. They have had packages for pistols, books, training courses, and forum sections dedicated to the specific topic for years now. Google fu a bit as I think a link would be impolite.

The difference in usage and reliance on iron sights as guides or training wheels to the dot, are likely due to the penalty for "not finding the dot" or a electronic malfunction are much more serious in defense use vs competition. Better folks than me to explain, but I will say I've got one Glock done and despite the expense another on the way...

 

[Blueduck]

Here is my 17 with Doc 3 I had done a couple of years ago. Inside 10 yards shooting at center mass, no difference in anything between it and my stock 17, because I'm using different aiming methods anyway. Further out I transition to the dot, seems to work well. More I shoot of course the more I just slap the gun up and the dots right there anyway, but thats taken a lot of rounds for me. I did try one of the higher mount systems before having the slide milled and it nearly turned me off of the idea entirely. Having the dot as low on the slide as possible so everythign I've been used to looking for the past 25 years or so is right where I left it, made a huge difference to me. I know the USPSA guys eventually get used to it, but this seems much easier.

Have a new 19 slide and RMR coming in next two weeks, so yeah I'm pretty much sold on the concept. Having 46 year old not so great eyeballs likely helped lock down my opinion.