Is There an Answer???

[Matthew Temkin]

We need some common ground to curb gun violence.
While it is impossible to prevent all mass shootings , I am pretty sure that if Lanza's mom did not have guns in the house that this nightmare would not have happened.
Zealots on both sides of the issue are best ignored.
For example, a few years back I was teaching advanced shooting to the instructor staff at a very large police department in New Jersey. This agency had just changed over to Glocks and they had over 1200 S&W 9Mm pistols that they had no use for.
The chief instructor wanted to donate them to the federal Government, so as to better arm the Iraq police who were then being trained by retired police officers/military.
Or to sell them to other police agencies/military police.
Sad to say the state of New Jersey ordered all of these guns--valued at about $500 each--destroyed.
That is about $600,000 of taxpayer property--that could have been sold to other police agencies--scrapped as garbage.
Is this reasonable?
While many on the far left of this issue hate guns and want all guns--even those of off duty police--stripped away, that is not going to happen in our lifetime.
By the same token we cannot have guns sold to just anyone--anywhere--without background checks.
Or some type of checks and balances that do a decent job of keeping guns out of the wrong hands without unduly infringing on the abilities of private citizens to defend themselves with legal firearms.
What say you guys--any suggestions?

 

[Sam1911]

Matthew, did you write this or is this some Facebook stuff you found somewhere?

I'm afraid I don't see connections between the various sentences in this post. What does police property policy have to do with Adam Lanza?

While it is impossible to prevent all mass shootings , I am pretty sure that if Lanza's mom did not have guns in the house that this nightmare would not have happened.

Obviously the author of this hasn't thought very hard about that statement! Considering how other mass murderers have done a VERY bang-up job without even using a gun... wow.

Where did this come from anyway?

 

[Ljjasper10]

Sam, as horrific as any school shooting is, I would like for you to name one current or proposed piece of legislation that would have kept Adam from doing from what he did. There is nothing.

 

[dfunde01]

The first thing we do before passing any additional firearms laws is to enforce the laws we have across the justice system. Fining David Gregory, let him plead nolo, the maximum of $1,000 for possession of a magazine prohibited under DC law would have been a start to show that these laws will be enforced uniformly. If the laws are onerous, repeal them. If existing laws are not respected new law also will be ignored. Today, the good guys obey the laws. If they become onerous they won't.

Reform our mental health system. Require that all patients on specific (list to be determined) psychotic medications be regularly monitored. In addition reestablish a legal process to committ those who are mentally unstable that are a danger to themselves or others to a secure treatment or confinement facility.

Maybe I am wrong, but I have been unable to find a single case of a CWP holder murdering a LEO with malice. I have looked long and hard. The metrics appear to support that the bad guys tend to avoid areas where CCW's are allowed. We should be working to make shall issue CWP states the rule.

Just a few thoughts. Far from a solution.

I would like to see the public rise up over the 270 deaths from preventable medical mistakes that take place every day. That is more in less than two days than are killed with rifles, including, assault rifles in a year.

Dave

 

[Sam1911]

Ljjasper, I've made exactly that point myself...about a dozen times here in the last month.

In fact, MOST of the legislation being considered "on the table" should be SCADALOUSLY embarassing to those proposing it as even a cursory glance over the issues would show folks that it has nothing at all to do with the case at hand.

Private sales limitations? Lanza STOLE guns from his own family who had legally purchased them!
Online ammo sale bans? What in the world would this have done to prevent that tragedy?
And on, and on.

The folks proposing these "compromises" and "reasonable restrictions" should be drug out before the public and denounced as opportunistic VULTURES. Just pushing their own agenda on the tragic deaths of children. That sort of behavior should RUIN someone's career in public life. Alas...

 

[David E]

Or some type of checks and balances that do a decent job of keeping guns out of the wrong hands without unduly infringing on the abilities of private citizens to defend themselves with legal firearms.

Without UNDULY INFRINGING, eh? How much infringing is ok with you? The 2A says "shall not be infringed," not "shall not be unduly infringed," or did you forget that?

What say you guys--any suggestions?

You don't want to read my suggestion, but I will say that gunowners like you are a more serious threat to the RKBA than any anti.

 

[kwguy]

I don't know if some of these people just aren't paying attention or what. This is supposed to be about how to protect the kids in school, but the people pushing the anti 2A agenda have made it about THEIR agenda, not about the issue at hand. In the process, they've got other people trying to come up with ways to "compromise" and find "common ground" on some issue that has nothing to do with helping the kids be safe from attacks in school.

They crow on and on and on and come up with these stupid ideas that only hamper law abiding citizens, and none of those ideas would fix the REAL problem.

The solution to making our kids safer (yes, "safer", completely safe is impossible. That is the reality of life. You can "what-if" anything, ad nauseum) is to have an armed and ready deterrent / response to a possible threat to the school. Period. That's not some stupid theory that needs to be argued about as to whether or not it would work. If armed deterrence / response didn't work, we wouldn't be doing it everywhere else. It doesn't need to be tank or MRAP sitting out in the school parking lot. It can take different forms as necessary, but come ON. THAT is the answer to this particular brand of 'gun violence". Period.

"Common ground"? Really? *** does that even mean when talking about an issue like this. What works, works. All of that "gun control" for the sake of "common ground" crap is just that: Crap. Taking something away from a law abiding citizen will not stop a criminal from being a criminal. The killer tried to buy a rifle, and was turned away. He stole his mothers gun. If he couldn't do that, he would have found another way. Period. That nut was gonna do whatever it took to do what he did. There was only one thing that would have stopped him.

All of these people with their "good ideas" need to step back and see what specific problem they are trying to solve with their ideas.

 

[Nickel Plated]

By the same token we cannot have guns sold to just anyone--anywhere--without background checks.

We've been doing it that way since the founding of this country right up to 1968, 192 years, and it was working just fine. So why is it such an unthinkable thing all of a sudden?

 

[autospike]

I am pretty sure that if Lanza's mom did not have guns in the house that this nightmare would not have happened.

I believe that Lanza lived less than 30 minutes away from where the Petit family was slaughtered. I can understand why she wanted a gun or two in the house. However, her son should not have had any access to them.

 

[Steel185]

what I don't understand is no one is looking further. I mean let's say they find a way to protect kids at school, obviously that's a big IF, with no real security solutions on the horizon. what about everywhere else? Church? daycare? children museums? dentist office? The list goes on and on. These are all "soft targets" meaning they aren't protected, that's why the scholars attacked. if you "harden" the schools the next shooter will move on to the next soft target. We need to push "the powers that be" to look at the true problem,not the symptoms.

 

[Fred_G]

"We need some common ground to curb gun violence. Gun violence is illegal.
While it is impossible to prevent all mass shootings , I am pretty sure that if Lanza's mom did not have guns in the house that this nightmare would not have happened. Really? He could only use her guns?
Zealots on both sides of the issue are best ignored. Are 2A supporters 'zealots' to you?
While many on the far left of this issue hate guns and want all guns--even those of off duty police--stripped away, that is not going to happen in our lifetime. Check out Australia and the UK.
By the same token we cannot have guns sold to just anyone--anywhere--without background checks. What proof do you have that passing a NICS will make someone never commit a crime?
Or some type of checks and balances that do a decent job of keeping guns out of the wrong hands without unduly infringing on the abilities of private citizens to defend themselves with legal firearms. What part of 'Shall not be infringed' confuses you?
What say you guys--any suggestions?" How about we enforce the laws we have.


Personally, I am tired of all this 'compromise' and 'common ground' BS. I am tired of being blamed for what crazy criminals do. I have a Constitutional right to own guns. I am a law abiding citizen. I am NOT the PROBLEM. Look at our countries drug problem. Crack is not legal for anyone (well, maybe gubment sponsored tests on what crack does to monkeys...) but it is not hard to get.

Show me how we can make criminals obey laws, and I will consider some compromise.

 

[Sam1911]

However, her son should not have had any access to them.

Did you miss how he KILLED HER and took the guns?

Somehow I think that would trump "now, don't touch sonny!" Once you've KILLED your own MOTHER, I would imagine breaking into the gun case to get unauthorized access to the family firearms becomes a relatively minor detail, don't you think?

 

[KenW.]

So what is being done in Asia about the mass stabbings and slashings in their schools? Should we emulate that?

We don't need gun control, we need violent crime control.

 

[Cosmoline]

I am pretty sure that if Lanza's mom did not have guns in the house that this nightmare would not have happened.

Or he would have bought them

Or he would have stolen them

Or he would have used some chains, gasoline and a match to kill the entire school.

The man (and he was no child) shot down his own mother and murdered a bunch of little kids in cold blood. Little words on little pieces of paper mean NOTHING to people like that. Absolutely nothing.

While many on the far left of this issue hate guns and want all guns--even those of off duty police--stripped away, that is not going to happen in our lifetime.

It will if we give in to them. Look at the UK. Little steps, each one phrased as "reasonable gun control" until at last the nation is reduced to KNIFE AND BEER BOTTLE CONTROL. I'm not making that up BTW. Sadly this is NOT from The Onion:

They argued many assaults are committed impulsively, prompted by alcohol and drugs, and a kitchen knife often makes an all too available weapon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4581871.stm

 

[autospike]

Did you miss how he KILLED HER and took the guns?

Somehow I think that would trump "now, don't touch sonny!" Once you've KILLED your own MOTHER, I would imagine breaking into the gun case to get unauthorized access to the family firearms becomes a relatively minor detail, don't you think?

Wow... Did you miss how he killed her with a gun?

Feel free to put all the snarky comments and faces you want. I stand by my comments that he should not have had access to the firearms. Could he have used other firearms from other sources? Sure, it's possible. But that's not what I said.

No. I didn't miss the part about him killing her. And since he killed her *with one of her own guns* it sounds to me as though he must have had access to them before he killed her, right?

So, he accessed the gun(s) & ammo, shot his mom in her sleep, maybe did some more gun / ammo accessing, and went on a rampage. The last I read, he shot her that AM and was shooting at the school by 09:30. It doesn't sound like it took him long to defeat whatever security she had - if she had any. And that's my point - she didn't have enough for her situation.

Put it this way. I have kids and firearms in my house. The level of security I have for those arms is sufficient to keep their hands off of them. In fact, it's sufficient to keep others' hands off them for quite some time.

If I had a mentally unstable 20 year old living in my home and I also had firearms, I would damn sure have them stored in something that would make it extremely difficult for him to access. It wouldn't be a stupid trigger lock or a "gun case".

 

[Fred_G]

If I had a mentally unstable 20 year old living in my home and I also had firearms, I would damn sure have them stored in something that would make it extremely difficult for him to access. It wouldn't be a stupid trigger lock or a "gun case".

I agree with you to a point. But do we legislate how guns must be stored? Plus, what facts do we have about his mental impairment?

You can't legislate normal people to prevent something like this from happening.

 

[swathdiver]

We need some common ground...

By the same token we cannot have guns sold to just anyone--anywhere--without background checks.

You've already lost the debate because you've accepted the left's false premises and unconstitutional actions.

The problem with violence is a spiritual one. America has turned her back on God and have been teaching their children since the 1960s that they are gods unto themselves. That they can do what's right in their own eyes. Such a belief has never worked, it always ends in mass murder.

Do you want a healthier society? Then start honoring the Lord. Make repentance towards God and put your faith in Jesus Christ. Win others for the Lord and all those biblically saved, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, will begin doing their best to live a Christ-like life, carrying out God's will for their lives and not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. This post is not just directed at you, but at everyone who reads it.

 

[Wolfman131]

By the same token we cannot have guns sold to just anyone--anywhere--without background checks.

This is exactly where I expected you to go! The anti-gun left has thrown down the gauntlet, and is hot in pursuit of the "holy grail" of gun control infringements, the so-called gun show loophole!

Gun owners, in droves are capitulating to the committed anti-gun left on this issue, not taking the time to think through what it is, that they are offering to lose, and for what!

I could really flame you, you deserve it, its quite clear that you are anti-gun, regardless of your posting total, or history. Unfortunately, you are not alone, many gun owners are just as anti-gun, though most of them, are ignorantly so.

So I won't flame you, rather, I will remind those that are actually thinking things through, that the "holy grail" of gun control legislation, is the closing of the gun show loophole, which is a complete misnomer, as what it really refers to, are private party sale & transfer of firearms. Its a liberty we have, the right to sell and trade amongst ourselves without government intrusion, or oversight. I know people who have been approached by ATF, who had a record of every gun they ever purchased or sold through a dealer, in contradiction of existing constitutional law!

ATF is not supposed to have that information, at all! Do you understand? Forcing every free citizen to submit to the state, before exercising a right, thats an infringement, it also would create an entirely new beauracracy, one that presumablly would have an awful lot of reach. Eliminating this liberty, is tantamount to registration, period!

So instead of flaming the anti-gun op, I'll just ask him a question that was asked over at m4carbine.net, how would this have impacted Sandy Hook?

 

[Lupinus]

Yes. There is an answer.

Let people- teachers, janitors, administrators, visiting parents, etc., carry in schools. Want to shoot up a school? Good luck.

But, NO. We MUST find some ground we can give to ensure this never happens again!

 

[Sam1911]

Wow... Did you miss how he killed her with a gun?

Feel free to put all the snarky comments and faces you want. I stand by my comments that he should not have had access to the firearms. Could he have used other firearms from other sources? Sure, it's possible. But that's not what I said.

Ok... so he should not have had access. Certainly agreed. My point is that he DID have access, one way or another. Getting a gun is pretty darned insignificant once you've made up your mind that you'll break both the law and the most intrinsic mores of common humanity.

It's kind of like saying maybe they should have put a "Murder is not nice!" sticker on the guns to remind him. He was far, FAR beyond anything a gun safe or some laws against unlawful purchase or transfers would have prevented. It isn't like there's some dearth of tools that will kill a person, or ways to get any of them you desire if you've already stepped that far off the deep end.

 

[Fred_G]

This is exactly where I expected you to go! The anti-gun left has thrown down the gauntlet, and is hot in pursuit of the "holy grail" of gun control infringements, the so-called gun show loophole!

Gun owners, in droves are capitulating to the committed anti-gun left on this issue, not taking the time to think through what it is, that they are offering to lose, and for what!

I could really flame you, you deserve it, its quite clear that you are anti-gun, regardless of your posting total, or history. Unfortunately, you are not alone, many gun owners are just as anti-gun, though most of them, are ignorantly so.

So I won't flame you, rather, I will remind those that are actually thinking things through, that the "holy grail" of gun control legislation, is the closing of the gun show loophole, which is a complete misnomer, as what it really refers to, are private party sale & transfer of firearms. Its a liberty we have, the right to sell and trade amongst ourselves without government intrusion, or oversight. I know people who have been approached by ATF, who had a record of every gun they ever purchased or sold through a dealer, in contradiction of existing constitutional law!

ATF is not supposed to have that information, at all! Do you understand? Forcing every free citizen to submit to the state, before exercising a right, thats an infringement, it also would create an entirely new beauracracy, one that presumablly would have an awful lot of reach. Eliminating this liberty, is tantamount to registration, period!

So instead of flaming the anti-gun op, I'll just ask him a question that was asked over at m4carbine.net, how would this have impacted Sandy Hook?

One heck of a first post Sir! Gunshow loophole would only work with all guns registered...

 

[abajaj11]

Sam, as horrific as any school shooting is, I would like for you to name one current or proposed piece of legislation that would have kept Adam from doing from what he did. There is nothing.

The one that has just been proposed that allows guns to be carried by good people in schools...removes their "no guns may be carried by good guys" status.

 

[joeschmoe]

How about the drugs and mental health of the perp? Everyone was quick to jump on the gun ban laws, but we still don't know what the drugs or the mental health issues were. My money is on powerfull mental drugs.

What do all these mass killers have in common? They're all crazy, and didn't get the help they needed before they killed. Everyone I've read about tried to get help or others told the police they were threatened by them and were scared of them, but the police did nothing (even though they already had enough laws to act. i.e. Cho - Virginia Tech).

Every city with a high murder rate has the same revolving door on criminals who use guns. Most get probation for using a gun to commit a crime.
When your city has hundreds of murders per year, why would you give almost every criminal who gets caught using a gun probation?

Why would you be surprised when you get more murders?

 

[abajaj11]

Amen! If mandatory BG checks on ALL sales is passed, we are 2-3 years from being disarmed completely in my opinion.
when you call you reps & congressmen as part of "operation gun rights" once a week, please be sure to mention that BG checks for all sales are a red line in the sand.
We will not allow those because they can ONLY be implemented by registration of all firearms in the country.

 

[autospike]

I agree with you to a point. But do we legislate how guns must be stored? Plus, what facts do we have about his mental impairment?

You can't legislate normal people to prevent something like this from happening.

I think they DO legislate how they are stored in CT. Very hard to enforce that kind of thing. But it would appear now (unless any new evidence comes to light) that she was negligent in how she stored them.

In regards to, "what facts do we have about his mental impairment": It appears that his mom knew that he was burning himself with a lighter some time before the attack and then there's this statement -

"From what I’ve been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and [her] plans to have him committed,” 25-year-old Joshua Flashman told Fox News."

So it sounds as if mom knew he was nutty and was working to have him committed. She knew something was going on. She didn't need the courts, or the fed govt, or the Brady Bunch to tell her to lock her stuff up.