Is this common at IDPA matches?

[RH45]

I've run in to "range Nazi" S.O.s, and R.O.s in IDPA, and USPSA. Some guys get a little power, and they go WAY overboard! It can turn, what should be a fun match in to a crappy day.

When I shoot a pistol with iron sights, the prescription glasses I wear are made to put my front sight in focus ( I think they are 2.75-3X). I remember an S.O. giving me some crap about taking an extra shot, or two once, so, I took my glasses off, and handed them to him, and said "I can only see my sights, and going by what I saw, I either missed, or made a poor hit. You look through these glasses at a target, and tell me if you think I can see bullet holes". He took one look through my glasses, and said "<deleted>, how can you even see the targets?" LOL-we got along fine, after that!!

 

[FTG-05]

Ok, another newbie question: What's "FTDR".

 

[ny32182]

"FTDR" stands for "failure to do right"; it is a 20 second penalty for actions that intentionally circumvent the spirit of the game. In practice these are rarely applied because most of the things they can be awarded for require the SO to interpret intent.

 

[Sam1911]

What's "FTDR".

Exactly as ny32182 said.

An example might be ignoring a stage instruction (like to shoot from the kneeling position, or to move to a certain place of cover) because you think it will be faster to shoot the stage a different way even with the procedural error penalty.

 

[Jim Watson]

I consider the "round dumping" FTDR to be unenforceable. Is the SO to be a mind reader to know whether the shooter is firing extra shots to set up a reload (bad), is uncertain of adequate hits (good), or is frustrated because he screwed up the stage (bad but unless he is unsafe, not a penalty item.)

I have given two FTDRs over time. One was to a shooter who lied to me and claimed he was in a location that he was not, one was to a shooter who declined to reload to fire the last shot because a simple 2.5 second miss was less than the time required to make a reload and fire another shot.

 

[ny32182]

Loading an incorrect number of rounds at the start of the stage is another non-negotiable reason to award FTDR.

Normally "round dumping" doesn't get one, because as Jim said, the SO typically would have to read the shooter's mind to tell the difference between round dumping and an honest make-up shot. In the OP's case however, since the guy admitted it...

Personally I've yet to ever give one.

 

[Sam1911]

I consider the "round dumping" FTDR to be unenforceable.

I largely agree, though I've seen it done with cause. A pal of mine was SO-ing at Nationals one year and observed the members of a national team (from a Caribbean island nation) spend time analyzing the stage with their coach and then all 5 of them put an extra round in exactly the same target, and all go to slide lock at an advantageous spot. The CSO made the call and they all got one. Pretty unique circumstance, though.

 

[jmorris]

The CSO made the call and they all got one.

After I and the SO sign my score sheet nothing should be added or changed. Give me an FTDR after the fact and you will see and hear more of me that you ever wanted to.

Just goes to show even CSO's at IDPA nationals make mistakes.

 

[jmorris]

Thinking further on the subject I have known many stages where there would be a single target that would be more likely to put an extra shot on. Like a lone distant target, one moving/shot while moving or hard cover. I think unless the shooter says he did something to gain advantage the FTDR shouldn't be used.

Even having the mag loaded wrong as stated above is a PE. How many times have you seen someone run an empty gun start stage and have 11 in the mag? They didn't mean to, nor gain any advantage by doing so. That's a PE not FTDR.

 

[ny32182]

I agree they shouldn't go back after the fact to change the score after the card is signed, but I don't think there is anything specifically in the rules prohibiting it. I would not consider it to be the mark of a good SO to say the least though.

Number of rounds in the mag, especially depending on the stage I think FTDR is warranted. If it is a 12 round stage and you load 12 rounds, a PE is not enough in my opinion. Situations like that are likely the only time I would notice that the wrong number was loaded anyway. I honestly don't count the vast majority of the time.

 

[Sam1911]

Even having the mag loaded wrong as stated above is a PE. How many times have you seen someone run an empty gun start stage and have 11 in the mag? They didn't mean to, nor gain any advantage by doing so. That's a PE not FTDR.

I shot a sanctioned match last year with a stage that started all guns on a table, unloaded, and loaded mags on the table. 11 round COF.

Any SSP or ESP shooter who finished the COF without a reload (or CDP shooter who fired 9) got an immediate FTDR.

On the one hand, you would be avoiding a reload that every other shooter had to do. Obvious advantage. On the other hand, putting a note in the stage briefing to remind shooters of how the rule would be applied would make it seem less like a deliberate trap.

I felt it was a dirty thing to do, especially as it tended to ding whoever was the first shooter in each squad and any new folks who didn't catch on. Kind of a test to see how deeply you'd studied and understood the intricacies of the rule book -- not how well you shot. I felt worse as I was working the match and felt guilty by association.

Oh well, it's a game and we move on.

 

[Sam1911]

I agree they shouldn't go back after the fact to change the score after the card is signed, but I don't think there is anything specifically in the rules prohibiting it. I would not consider it to be the mark of a good SO to say the least though.

I should not say exactly how the entire thing unfolded as I was not present on that bay. I also am not aware of any specific rule that forbids altering a score based on information discovered after the fact, but it is an uncomfortable decision either way.

I guess the MD could have tossed the team for unsportsmanlike conduct, but that would have made for a long swim home.

 

[waktasz]

The same happened at the IDPA state championship in my squad. Someone started with their gun empty and their 11 round mag and he got a PE. If he had done it on purpose it would have been more but you could tell that he didn't.

 

[Sam1911]

The same happened at the IDPA state championship in my squad.

Which stage was that? My mind is blanking on that one.

 

[waktasz]

The one in the very far back right corner where you had to draw while seated, after the police car stage.

Now that I think about it, it wasn't an empty gun start, he just must have counted wrong when loading his mags. He didn't do a reload though and that's why the SO knew something wasn't right.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh. Yes, I think you're right.

I was still reeling by that stage as I yanked the dummy in the cop car too hard and it flipped over, whacked me in the head and knocked the gun almost out of my hands! Embarassing and a near-DQ.

 

[fastmtnbiker33w]

They are all games and games have rules. I was never a fan of IDPA because of all the extra engagement rules. But I wanted to start doing some multi-gun stuff and the only group doing them in my area is the IDPA group. I wasn't familiar with all the rules and the RO wasn't explaining all the "slice the pie" stuff and position behind cover until after someone didn't do it on their stage. It's all good though. Play the game by the rules. If you don't understand the rules, ask. Most local match RO's will be cool and educate you after you make the mistake or even correct you during the COF.

I'm willing to live with the tactical engagement rules on the multi-gun stuff because it's the only competition available in my area. As for pistol only, I'll stick with USPSA for now unless I just keep sucking like I have been and throw in the towel on pistol only.

 

[Nushif]

This kind of makes me not want to attend a shoot, tbh.

I would go there just for the fun of it, and I am quite aware I would finish dead last. Is there just practice sessions? Without the timer, and just some hints, tips, advice and the like before you have to compete and put up with stuff like that?

I guess I don't have much faith in the local community here dealing with a 28 year old who smiles or grins when he shoots civilly. Most of the even remotely competitive ones I can see yelling, cursing and just being hats belonging on derrieres.

 

[Sam1911]

This kind of makes me not want to attend a shoot, tbh.

That's what I'm afraid of. Remember the old rule: Every good experience gets reported once. Every bad experience gets retold a thousand time. The practical/action/defensive shooting games are more popular all the time because they ARE fun and folks really DO have a great time and find them rewarding and educational. Don't let a few horror stories define the whole scene for you as they are undoubtedly the exception to the rule.

I would go there just for the fun of it, and I am quite aware I would finish dead last.

And most shooters who attend club level matches are there for exactly that reason. Good practice, good fun, and spending time with fellow shooters. The folks who are wound too tightly are actually pretty few and far between.

Is there just practice sessions? Without the timer, and just some hints, tips, advice and the like before you have to compete and put up with stuff like that?

That does depend on the club, I guess. My club has a weekly practice session for about 3-4 hours every Thursday night. Very informal (except for the safety rules) and a great environment for new shooters to learn the ropes. We run drills, set up scenario stages, practice techniques, and take a lot of care to explain how the rules apply.

When the monthly matches come around we get a little more formal, but the competition is friendly, and the new shooters can still get all the help they might want.

I guess I don't have much faith in the local community here dealing with a 28 year old who smiles or grins when he shoots civilly.

That's very much too bad.

Most of the even remotely competitive ones I can see yelling, cursing and just being hats belonging on derrieres.

I shoot at something around 9-10 IDPA clubs in a given year. I've NEVER seen that kind of behavior (not once, that I can remember) and it would most definitely not be tolerated by any of the MDs I know.

Must be a USPSA thing.




(j/k! )

 

[chrome_austex]

The SOs at one of our local IDPA matches have warned us on multiple occasions to expect stricter enforcement of the rules from SOs at larger 'regional' type events. (airgunning, stringent cover, emptying the gun for a time advantage, etc) Our local SOs are pretty good about tuning the rules enforcement to the skill level of the shooter and not jumping down a newbie's throat for sloppy cover use and other non-safety sport rules.

So it seems like that kind of stuff does happen at bigger matches.

In general bigger match = more competition (and possible monetary rewards?) = stricter enforcement of penalties written into the rules.

Now, getting yelled at for emptying 8 shots where 6 was required and esp if you didn't even neutralize the target is completely inappropriate. The S.O. must have thought that the shooter was trying to 'game' the stage by working in a reload at that time, and it sounds like he was just flat wrong in that case.

 

[Albatross]

Nushif,

I wouldn't let my story discourage you from participating in the Oregon area. That is my crew's stomping grounds. We've shot the vast majority of the matches in the state, admittedly mostly entirely in the Willamette valley (all of us at the University of Oregon until recently).

If you are looking for a fun defensive pistol practice type competition I can't more highly recommend the monthly match at the Izaac Walton League gun range in Eugene. No one does ballerina moves, the RO's are good guys and no one is very concern about the score (procedurals are rare and no one argues about points down or cheating). Hell, they even encourage novel/interesting ways of completing the stage. It is worth showing up for on a Saturday. Really gives you a firm idea if your equipment and skills would be effective.

Upon further reflection and conversation with my pals, we probably encouraged some of the poor treatment that we received. We were heckling each other, laughing, making fun and generally not taking it half as seriously as many of the other competitors. We probably hurt their feelings a bit and simply learned a small lesson in petty authority the hard way. It doesn't pay to make light of something that others take _very seriously_ especially when you are the visitor/guest in their home.

Also, to clear up misconceptions. My buddy didn't dump rounds or admit to doing such. He admitted only to intentionally firing his gun, because he was misinterpreting the SO's accusations. He wasn't positive if he'd made his hits (which he didn't, even with the extra shots) and figured why save bullets if retreating to cover and a reload. It made since to him tactically and is what he'd do in such a situation on the street. Maybe that is cheating with a strict interpretation of the rules, but it shouldn't be for a defensive pistol match.

 

[jmorris]

I shot a sanctioned match last year with a stage that started all guns on a table, unloaded, and loaded mags on the table. 11 round COF.


Any SSP or ESP shooter who finished the COF without a reload (or CDP shooter who fired 9) got an immediate FTDR.

It's intent. If you RO the stage and give the COF telling everyone A=B that is fine. If you are an MD or RO baiting a trap you should be neither.

 

[ny32182]

Nushif, I'm 28, never had a problem... go for it.

A 17 year old actually won a divisional national championship not long ago.

 

[Nushif]

Eugene is actually the club I've been looking at. >.<

Alright! When I don't have drill, and I can afford the ammo I'll enter Duck Territory. you sold me on it. Saturday one of thee days it is.

 

[LiveLife]

Wow, and match shooting used to be about having FUN.

Maybe the RO was having a bad day or woke up on the wrong side of the bed?